2 Corinthians 5:19 namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Oh my how the carnal men ever seeks a way around the cross. And so they become as Job's friends accusing each other, and beyond belief, their own selves, of suffering because of their sins. You ever scratch your head, as you watch some rich and famous go through life seemingly as unscathed, while the Godly suffer much?

My friend and Job's friend, you might suffer for your sins but it is only in ignorance you do so. For you have not seen nor realized, that before there was even sin the Lamb of God was slain, that sin would not be imputed to man.

The hypocrisy is yours Job's friends, for God has sorely blinded you at this time, that you not realize we are joined to Christ in His sufferings, His death and His resurrection. Jesus is our older brother, and our pattern. So goes Christ, so go the rest of, God's sons for Jesus is the Pattern Son, for all generations.

Friend's of Job, in your accusations you cry with hypocrisy that I have formed some theory of substitutionary atonement, when quite to the opposite, I stand on the other end, afar from your beliefs, saying, "as He is so are we in this world." It is not I that believes in a substitutionary atonement but instead a sharing in His atonement. I believe those whom are called to share the Cross of Christ, are made worthy to take their position as the saviours on the mount. These are the saviours with Christ as captain. These that share His cross are the sons of God, for whom all creation groans for.

Do you know God's sons are all the offerings of God. There were five particular offerings that God ordained for Israel in the Old Testament. All these offerings were instituted as a shadow and type pointing to the work of the Cross. (See Leviticus, Chapters 1 to 5.) All these offerings speak of Christ, and they speak of Christ in union with the ekklesia, the called out ones.

For a surety the sacrificial system continues and is working today within the lives of God's sons. We who bear the cross are God's sacrifices and offerings for the church and a dieing world.

We have been commissioned to present our bodies as a sacrifice.
Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.

One gives sacrifice by dieing, so we die daily.
1 Corinthians 15:31 I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily.

The only way to have Christ' Spirit living within us is to be crucified with Christ. Thus,we are crucified with Christ.
Galatians 2:20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me

We suffer for the church. We suffer to fill up the afflictions of Christ.
Colossians 1:24 Who now rejoice in my sufferings for you, and fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ in my flesh for his body's sake, which is the church:

We are God's continuing offering and even the sin offering. Do you know we are as He is.
John 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.

Jesus said, "He who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also" (John 14:12). We assume that Jesus meant that we would work His miracles, but Jesus did not limit His definition of "works" to the miraculous. The works He did, such as the redemptive life, the mercy cry, the identification with sinners, rendering Himself a sacrifice and an offering ........... all the works He did, we will "do also."

So I end with a call to Job's friends here, to quit seeking miracles and the riches of this world, quit pining for your elevated pulpits before a soulish Pentecostal crowd, but instead seek union with Christ in sacrifice of all of yourself. I am assured that although you may not heed this call today, you will in another, and in that, you will find healing and salvation. Christ loves you and because of that love He shares the whole of Himself with you. He shares even His sufferings and His death which leads to His resurrection.

Be loved my friends and friend's of Job, and may you suffer not in vain,
John

How rude and insensitive you are to the fellow members of the same body as you are a member. I have suffered IN HIM on the cross where HE suffered as the eternal sacrifice and the ONCE AND FOR ALL sacrifice.

You say that God has sorely blinded us and I say that you have chosen to be blind to the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus who totally died as us, not just for us as you say.

On another cmment you posted you spoke of the Lamb and the goat upon the altar in sacrifice. The one thing you failed to notice is that both the lamb and the goat were sacrificed upon the same altar TOGETHER in other words WITH each other. It can't be sacrificed but once as a dead sacrifice. Now we are a living sacrifice, no longer a dead one, for your death or mine in no way will help anyone including ourselves.
You continuously refuse and reject the truth that the verses you espouse teach and they are that the sacrifice of Jesus upon the cross was more than the sacrifice of one man, it was indeed the sacrifice of all men. Totally efficacious and reaching to all. And yet you in some arrogant posture seem to believe that you making some sort of unneeded sacrifice in some way trumps the sacrifice of the Lord Jesus. Offer all you want, keep giving needless sacrifices, trying to atone for yourself, when the atonement of the Lord Jesus was enough completely.

Hebrews 10:4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and GOATS (which you say we are) should take away sins.

So if we are indeed the goat then any sacrifice we make is in no way sufficient to take away sins. How could it be when His sacrifice has put AWAY sin forever.

Hebrews 10:3 But in those sacrifices (bulls, goats, doves, etc...) there is a remembrance again made of sins every year.

Seems to me that you want to keep the memory of sins alive by your continual sacrificing when the ONCE AND FOR ALL SACRIFICE OF THE LORD JESUS WAS ENOUGH TO DEAL WITH ALL SIN AND SINS.

Hebrews 10:6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

Hebrews 10:9b "...HE taketh away the first, (the sacrifices of bulls, goats, etc...) that HE may establish the second.(The eternal sacrifice of the Lord Jesus meaning no more sacrifice will be needed).

Hebrews 10:10
By the which will WE ARE SANCTIFIED THRU THE OFFERING OF THE BODY OF JESUS CHRIST (NOT YOUR BODY AND NOT YOUR SACRIFICE BUT HIS)ONCE FOR ALL.

Yet according to you and these other false teachers you want to keep offering some sort of sacrifice today and yet Hebrews 10:11 says that "...these sacrifices can NEVER TAKE AWAY SINS."

So, here's my question for you. Not that you have ever directly attempted to answer any other question I have directly asked of you but I will try again. If we are to be sacrificing today then what is the purpose for that sacrifice? It certainly isn't to become a saviour as that position has been filled. The only saviours we become are when we present the Lord Jesus and His eternal once and for all sacrifice to mankind showing them that He has paid it all and it is ALL to HIM I OWE. Sin had left a crimson stain, but HE has washed it white as snow.

Hebrews 10:14 FOR BY ONE OFFERING (THAT OF HIMSELF) HE HATH PERFECTED FOREVER THEM THAT ARE SANCTIFIED.

So suffer on in your false hope that your suffering is producing something of value for yourself or someone else. But in doing so your doctrine equals that of the Catholic Church where they can somehow save themselves thru their own acts of penance and reconciliationary acts.
As for me I simply accept the Finished Word of The Cross and how it applies to me, and I realize that His suffering was my suffering, His death was my death, and because of that HIS LIFE is Now MY LIFE.

IN CHRIST,
Ken Hill

My personal belief, is that it is a dramatic type and shadow of our walk. It is my opinion that it represents the two Adams. I see a theatrical depiction of the first Adam in a state of identity crisis, and we recognize ourself in his walk to find out who he is in God. Those criticizing, are the Son's of God, and we have all had people in our lives such as these. Ultimately, they make us "grow and know," who we are in Christ.

I believe in ultimate reconciliation, and see that scripture posted directly under the one that said blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin. The scripture being, 2Cor.5:19 I believe is saying God is not imputing anyone's sin against them. Those Son's who accuse or point the finger, are part of the world God was reconciling.

Everyone is judged by the earth law, of seed, time, and harvest. After a period of time in all of our lives, there will be a SUDDENLY, and our choices will harvest. To many who have made wise choices, their SUDDENLY may be a bountiful harvest, but this law does not escape our carnality. Our suffering is not a part of God's plan, but a result of seeds we have planted, or a result of an earth out of balance.

As for seeking a way around the cross, I believe we not only appreciate the cross and what it represents, but understand it was Jesus who hung there, that we did not have to.

The end of this depiction, Job is rewarded double for his loss, and he is not sick anymore, nor hurting. we are a Living sacrifice, not a suffering sacrifice. When we begin our spiritual walk, and have an identiy question, we might suffer as a consequence of our choices, we might even bring a contridiction into our lives, again as a result of the choices we have made in our walk to find ourself in the Christ. When he said "Behold, I do a new thing," and we become a new creation, I believe that new creation is perfect, and that is what he said about us. He said he blessed us with all spiritual blessings, in heavenly places with Christ. He chose us in him before the foundation of the world according to the good pleasure of his will. He made us accepted in the beloved. He hath abounded toward us in all wisdom and prudence, having made known unto us the mystery of his will, according to his good pleasure which he had purposed in himself.

The very same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, is the same Spirit that dwells in us. That Spirit has already suffered, died, and become the overcomer. It is the same Spirit that is raised, and set at his own right hand in the heavenly places, above all principality, and power, and might, and dominion, and every name that is named, not only in this world, but also in that which is to come. And hath put all under his feet and gave him to be the head over all to the church, which is the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all.

It says the same Spirit that raised Jesus from the dead, not the Spirit that suffered on the cross, and died. He alone hung on the cross and died for mankind. He paid a debt we could not pay, and people can ride the cross to heaven if they want to, saying woe is me, but our woe will not benefit creation. It is a finished work, and our purpose is not the same purpose to come and suffer on the cross, for that was the purpose of the head. Our purpose is to find our place in the body.

When we glorify our suffering, we neglect the finished work. I have suffered before, even in finding myself in the scripture, or in him. This suffering was a time before I understood his promise of healing and beauty for ashes and double for my shame. The end result was becomeing a new creation, which was his purpose.

I was surprised to see Job quoted to make the point of suffering, because the result in his earth experience, was an abundant life, not suffering.

I pray for your healing, for God's plan was a good life. Love, Gayle

Last Edited on 6-Dec-2009 9:41 PM

Now there is lieing spirit.

Issaiah 61 says God promises double for our shame.

Love In Christ, Gayle

What Gayle wrote was not a lying spirit..but a spirit of balance that you need.

an eternal brother, snowman

"The cry of man's anguish went up to God,
'Lord take away pain:
The shadow that darkens the world Thou hast made,

The close-coiling chain
That strangles the heart, the burden that weighs
On the wings that would soar,
Lord, take away pain from the world Thou hast made,
That it love Thee the more.'

"Then answered the Lord to the cry of His world:
'Shall I take away pain,
And with it the power of the soul to endure,
Made strong by the strain?
Shall I take away pity, that knits heart to heart

And sacrifice high?
Will ye lose all your heroes that lift from the fire
White brows to the sky?
Shall I take away love that redeems with a price
And smiles at its loss?
Can ye spare from your lives that would climb unto Me
The Christ on His cross?"

Now some want to keep their pains and they can;
I will allow it, but it's not part of my plan.
I don't make them sick and troubled with pain;
I make them well when they accept my reign.

I'm not an old tyrant as some would say;
I heal and I mend, as my word does say.
My Son finished the work on the cross, you see;
Giving salvation and healing to all men for free.

Don't think yourself grand or special to be;
Another sacrifice, for that's not needed, you see.
A once and for all sacrifice Jesus became;
and all of your suffering now is totally in vain.

It won't produce salvation or peace for another,
by trying to FINISH the works of your Brother.
The elder Lord Jesus has completed the plan;
no sacrifice needed on the part of mere man.

If you could pay for it, then Christ was not needed;
but His sacrifice worked for all, the Father pleaded.
Now you say that you're suffering for what?;
To complete what I didn't, I THINK NOT!

My suffering was yours as we hung on the cross;
You were there with me, not one man will suffer loss.
I have completed what my Father sent me to;
How dare you think your mortal works will do.

More than I did for you, as the supreme sacrifice;
If you just accept it your life will be nice.
I have given you all things for your life;
That you may have peace and an end to all strife.

Now rest in my works and accept what I've done;
Provided for all thru the work and life of my Son.
Stop struggling and fighting each other I plead,
And follow the Lamb wherever He leads.

He will lead you and guide you into all truth you will see;
That living within Him will truly bless you and me.
We cannot earn or even deserve; the great gift we are given;
by what He has done as He served;His Father in Heaven and His brothers on earth.

So lift up your heads and your hands unto me;
I will pour out my Spirit upon you for all to see.
That I'm living within you, within your own house;
It's me in the Temple, and I'm freeing my spouse.

Youre married to me and we will produce;
a Seed in the earth that will turn and loose.
The rest of creation so all will then see,
It was my finished work and that's all you need.

Love IN Christ,
Ken

your brother, Michael

For everything that is in the world-the desire for fleshly gratification, the desire for possessions, and worldly arrogance-is not from the Father but is from the world. ~ 1John 2:16

Along side these worldly ones, there is a little flock, in whom it is God's pleasure to give the Kingdom.

But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for he has prepared for them a city. ~ Hebrews 11:16,

"So, likewise, whosoever he be of you that forsaketh not all that he hath, he cannot be My disciple. ~ Luke 14:33

God's sons are sojourners, heaven bent and not here to gather and take our inheritance on this side of the river. Daniel knew to refuse the pleasant bread and Jesus became the bread worthy of those that followed Him. Jesus is the pattern son and He had nary a place in this world to lay His head. Like Him we must die to our selves and die to the things of this world to follow Him into Resurrection Life.

"Pick up thy cross, pilgrims. For we have left the leeks and garlic of Egypt and are moving to the other side!"

John

You speak of "moving to the other side" as though it is a physical moving and only occurs at your personal death. Man, grow up intothe spirit and realize that this is a spiritual thing not a geographical change.

You say we lust after temporal and yet you have no idea of what you speak. Your vain imaginations are just that VAIN. Speaking of vanity, your self proclaimed aggrandizement of yourself sure does not depict the nature of the savior which you think you proclaim. It depicts a self-centerd view of your own flesh and the abilityyou proclaim to have to do something Christ couldn't do in His once and for all sacrifice. How absurd and ridiculous are your claims.

I was just thinking how God gives us everything we need in the moment. He allows us to sing, write, and speak, his message to creation. We can do all things through Christ!

Love IN Christ,
Ken Hill