Thought Provoking Question
Why Do Saints Suffer?

"Precious (costly, valuable, rare) in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." Ps. 116:15

What makes the death of one of the Lord’s saints different from the death of anyone else? There isn’t any experience Christians have that others don’t experience. Christians "die like men" (Psa. 82:7). Death comes in all forms—natural or violent; sudden or drawn out; for supporting a righteous cause or in a seemingly insignificant role. Yet the death of His saints is very precious in the Lord’s sight.

The last hours of life are not the focal point, but the years leading to that end. The years of long suffering and patient endurance produce the Christ-like character acceptable to the Lord.

What is the purpose of suffering and trials of the saints? Is it more than a test of faithfulness?

The Cup

When our Lord gathered his disciples just hours before his death, he introduced them to a new concept associated with his impending death. As Jesus passed the cup at the Passover Supper, he instructed them to drink of it also (Matt. 26:27,28). Earlier, when asked about their position in the Kingdom, Jesus responded, "You do not know what you are asking for. Are you able to drink the cup that I am about to drink? (Matt. 20:22 NAS). Jesus knew that sitting at his right hand in the Kingdom was an honor requiring a willingness to drink of the same cup he was about to drink of. The disciples didn’t fully know what would be involved when they answered, "We are able." In time, as their minds were enlightened to the true meaning of our Lord’s words, the disciples did not waiver from their commitment to drink of Jesus’ cup. As each member of the body of Christ drinks of the Lord’s cup, he shares in communion (Greek. koinonos: partnership, participation) with the death and sufferings of his Savior. "The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not the communion of the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not the communion of the body of Christ?" (1 Cor. 10:16).

Followers of Christ

"These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth" (Rev. 14:4). Jesus called his disciples, "Follow me." And they forsook all, and followed him (Luke 5:11). "Follow"—to be in the same way with, to accompany, as in union with a road. "For even hereunto were ye called, because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps" (1 Peter2:21).

"Conformable to his death"

The Apostle Paul recognized types in the Law. He reflected upon the types as illustrations of Jesus’ sacrifice and the sacrifices of those willing to drink of the cup of suffering. The Church would "know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death" (Phil. 3:10). "... as ye are partakers of the sufferings, so shall ye be also of the consolation" (2 Cor. 1:7). "Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body" (2 Cor. 4:10).

Pattern to Follow

The Day of Atonement sacrifices picture the sufferings of the Gospel Age, beginning with our Lord and continuing until the completion of the Church, resulting in blessing the people.

What happened to the bullock (a picture of our Lord), also happened to the Lord’s goat (a picture of the Church). Both animals were killed. Their blood was taken into the Most Holy. Their fat burned on the brazen altar. Their skins, flesh, and dung burned without the camp (Lev. 16).

"Outside the Camp"

"For the bodies of those animals whose blood is brought into the holy place by the high priest as an offering for sin are burned outside the camp. "Therefore, Jesus also, that he might sanctify the people through his own blood, suffered outside the gate. "Hence, let us go out to him outside the camp, bearing his reproach" (Heb. 13:11-13).

By following Jesus, the Church bears his reproach. As the skins, flesh and dung of the bullock and goat produced a stench outside the camp, so the living sacrifices of Jesus and the church bring reproach from the world. "We are made as the filth of the world, and are the offscouring of all things" (1 Cor. 4:13). "The reproaches of them that reproached thee are fallen upon me" (Psa. 69:9). Jesus was "despised and rejected of men." He was esteemed "stricken, smitten of God, and afflicted" (Isa. 53:3, 4). Jesus told his disciples, "...the world hateth you.... The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you." John. 15:19,20.

Burning in the Court

The fat and life organs of the bullock and goat were burned on the brazen altar in the Court. Life organs (heart sentiments, best powers offered in self denials) were burned quickly because of the fat (zeal). Jesus’ sacrifice was consumed quickly in 3-1/2 years because of his zeal. "The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up" (John. 2:17). When the love (zeal, fat) of our inmost being is laid on the altar, it increases the fire of God’s acceptance. The more love in our consecration, the more quickly the offering is consumed.

Incense in the Holy Place

Simultaneous with the burning outside the camp and the burning in the court, incense was burned in the Holy. The incense (Jesus’ perfection) was burned (consumed by obedience) by fire (trials), producing fragrance (a sweet perfume to God). "Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; and being made perfect he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him" (Heb. 5:8). "Walk in love as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweet-smelling savor" (Eph. 5:2). Through the perfection of Jesus, the obedient sufferings of the followers of Christ also are a sweet savor to God. "For we are unto God a sweet savor of Christ, in them that are saved" (2 Cor. 2:15).

Seated in the Heavenly Places The new creatures of the Church, like the new creature of Jesus, developed in the Holy Place while the bullock and goat were consumed in the Court and without the Camp. God "hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:6) In the Holy, Jesus and the Church feed at the Table of Shewbread, the Word of God (Matt. 4:4), for strength and refreshment. They hold forth the Word of life to others (Phil. 2:16). The candlestick represents the Church enlightened by truth from the holy spirit (olive oil), as well as their being lights in the world (Mt. 4:16; Mt. 5:14; Rev. 1:11). At the Incense Altar, prayers of the saints are offered (Rev. 5:8).

Ram of Consecration

In another picture, the blood of the ram of consecration was put on the tip of the right ear, right thumb of the right hand, and great toe of the right foot of Aaron (Jesus) and his sons (the Church) (Lev. 8:22-24). As with Jesus, so with the Church. Spiritual ears are opened by faith to hearing God’s Word (Psa. 40:6-8; Rom. 10:17). Spiritual hands, physical activity, do the service of God (Phil. 4:13; Ecc: 9:10). Spiritual feet walk in newness of life, walk by faith, walk in the spirit and walk in the light (Rom. 6:9; Eph. 4:17; Rom. 6:9; 2 Cor. 5:7; Gal. 5:16).

Sympathetic Priesthood

During Jesus’ ministry of 3-1/2 years, it is difficult to imagine he could experience every problem and trial common to man from Adam to the present. There were problems since his time that he would never have been exposed to and yet he is our High Priest of whom we read,

"For we do not have a high priest who cannot sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who has been tempted in all things as we are, yet without sin" (Hebrews 4:15 NAS). The word "sympathy" is from the Greek Sumpatheo—to feel "sympathy" with, i.e., to commiserate. From Sumpathes—having a fellow-feeling, mutually commiserative.

The risen Lord Jesus is our sympathetic High Priest. He knows what we are going through. He understands and is there to encourage us to keep up the good fight and resist the world, the flesh, and the adversary. Misery loves company. What better company could one ask for than to have a sympathetic Lord Jesus near us at every moment down through the age. "These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world" (John 16:33). Our privilege is to use our experiences today to make us sympathetic to the sufferings which are in the world that we may help them up the highway of holiness in the next age. Each experience is intended to bring out the best in our character. Each painful lesson is custom designed to mold and shape us into a unique place in the body, so as a whole, the body of Christ may be better enabled to serve in lifting the groaning creation up from the miry depths of sin.

When we have been chosen of the Lord to experience a severe trial, he knows we have the ability to withstand it. It is a sign of his confidence in our ability to overcome. He wouldn’t allow such an experience to fall upon us if we couldn’t handle it. He will not leave us to flounder about, helpless, alone. He will be there to supervise each moment. The greater the suffering, the higher the honor. "There hath no temptation taken you, but such as is common to man: but God is faithful, who will not suffer you to be tempted above that ye are able; but will with the temptation also make a way to escape, that ye may be able to bear it." (I Cor. 10:13)

The Fullness of Christ

The Heavenly Father graciously provided for the afflictions which the Church would experience. Jesus experienced affliction, but there was additional affliction to be shared by his followers. It wasn’t just a coincidence, but part of his great Plan to "... fill up that which is behind of the afflictions of Christ" (Col. 1:24). The Church is the fullness of Christ, the body of the Head (Eph. 1:22,23).

No wonder our experiences are not different from the world’s. No wonder we do not live sheltered from pain and distress. Overcoming, in spite of these obstacles, gives purpose to the life of the church and makes their death more valuable, precious, in the sight of the Lord. As the Church was patterned after Jesus in the way of suffering and death, so the Church will be like Jesus in their resurrection. "For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son that he might be the firstborn among many brethren" (Rom. 8:29).

"Beloved, think it not strange, concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you; but rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ’s sufferings, that when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy" (I Peter 4:12, 13).

"Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be; but we know that when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is" (1 John. 3:2).

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: If we suffer, we shall also reign with him" (2 Tim. 11,12).

from the Herald Magazine

You preached one of the greatest messages above on the finished work of the cross that I have ever heard, yet you don't believe it as it hasn't been quickened to you yet.
"Precious (costly, valuable, rare) in the sight of the Lord is the death of His saints." Ps. 116:15 Absolutely the truth! But the death of his saints is a past event that happened 2000 years ago as we died IN HIM, otherwise we can't be DEAD WITH HIM as is said. You see you can't be dead WITH HIM NOW AS HE IS NOT DEAD ANYMORE.
YOU CANT BE SUFFERING WITH HIM NOW AS HE ISN'T SUFFERING ANYMORE! IT IS FINISHED!
If you suffer WITH HIM not after him you shall REIGN WITH HIM.
Suffering now is for the ignorant of the fact that our suffering was completed BY AND IN HIM.

You cannot have a koinonos or koinonia as you described apart from HIM, only WITH and IN HIM. There is no fellowship with Him apart from Him. Therefore, I AM COMPLETE IN HIM AND HIS SUFFERING WAS ENOUGH FOR ME.
Yes, the world will hate you and persecute you for a stand on truth, I KNOW. Unfortunately it isn't the world without God that does the greatest persecutions it is those who claim to be sons of God and those who claim to be fellow saints of the household of God that do the greatest persecution. Because of their tradition and their own beliefs that somehow they want to present the idea that Jesus' work was not enough and we somehow can complete that which He didn't finish, though He adamantly stated that "I HAVE FINISHED THE WORK THAT MY FATHER SENT ME TO DO."
yOU TALK ABOUT "CAN'T HAVE IT BOTH WAYS" OFTEN AND YET YOU SEEM TO WANT IT BOTH WAYS AS YOU BELIEVE THAT WHAT YOU ARE DOING IS ABLE TO DO SOMETHING THAT JESUS HIMSELF COULDN'T DO. That would be laughable if it wasn't so pathetic!
Don't flatter yourself to think that you are some highly favored one because you are suffering greatly and that proves your sonship, that is utterly ridiculous.
And as per your statement about some on this site who want to bypass the cross, you have no idea of what you speak. HIS CROSS WAS MY CROSS! If that is bypassing the cross then I can't for the life of me figure out how. Now I don't need your long dissertation to try to prove anything to me as I AM CONVINCED of that which has been revealed to me and NOTHING WILL CHANGE me but God, and you don't qualify.
I, Too, realize that I won't change you and I am not trying but I refuse to sit and watch a site with which I am well acquainted with the originators of be attacked and called part of the antichrist spirit and the ministers here be called wayward souls without saying something in return.

YOU SIR ARE NOT THE JUDGE JURY AND EXECUTIONER HERE AND THE WORDS YOU SPEAK WITH THE GROSS MISINTERPRETATIONS YOU PRESENT ARE NOT OVERLOOKED. I WON'T SIT BY AND NOT RESPOND AGAINST EVERY FALSE IDEA YOU PRESENT, FOR THEY ARE POISON TO THE REAL TRUTH AND TO THE GOSPEL.

I can hear the way you must witness to someone now. Hey yall come and join up with this God I serve. He loves you but when you really follow Him he will make you sick, hurt you and put all manner of suffering on you in order to make you qualified for the "big boy pants" of the kingdom. What an invitation! One I can gladly refute with the truth that Jesus said! "Come unto me ALL YE THAT LABOR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST." NOT I WILL GIVE MORE HEARTACHE TO YOU, I WILL GIVE YOU REST.....
Yes, trials will come my way, but in everything God is still Godand He loves me with an enending and undying love.

I have met my appointment with death IN HIM ON THE CROSS and it isonly appointed unto men once to die. Therefore, no appointment left for me. And if you tie this in solely with the realm we have called"life" in the natural you have totally missed the whole point of this message.

Many years after having first put on the Lord Jesus, Paul declares that he is still trying to apprehend the One Who has already apprehended him. This, the greatest of all apostles, would share over and over again, that our perfection comes by way of our cross, which is His cross. The Cross is, was and will ever be, for it is the very centrality of all that gives rise into His Life.

How can one be conformed to Christ, when one places the cross way out there, and then seeks every which way around it?

Now pick up thy cross, pilgrims and don't worry about selling an easy sweet gospel. Share Truth and let God draw whom He will, when He will.

God bless,
John

Read what you jusy wrote. Our cross, which is His cross. That is the truth and it is in our past not our future. You said it and you don't even believe it. Dude, you can't have it both ways, stop talking out of both sides of your carnality.

How can one be conformed to Christ, when one places the cross way out there, and then seeks every which way around it?

Once again you contradict your own self. I have never said the cross is way out there, and I have never tried to circumvent it. I see myself on it already and that which has been accomplished on it is working out in me daily. I absolutely seek no way around HIS CROSS, but I refuse to get on your version of the cross as it is death only and his is LIFE only.

Now pick up thy cross, pilgrims and don't worry about selling an easy sweet gospel. Share Truth and let God draw whom He will, when He will.

Now get over the Duke analogy for it makes no sense. I dont have to do the cross again as He did it for me.

Father forgive them for they think they can add something to your finished work and improve upon it in some manner. Forgive them for not realizing that YOU alone were the ONCE and FOR ALL sacrifice and not we ourselves. PLease help John Lord, He really needs it, and me also Lord!

John there is no drawing power in your message only a repelling force. For regardless of how someone answers you you belittle them, call them antichrist, and also wayward ones. Grow up dude this aint about you it is all about HIM. It aint about me either it is all about HIM.

No benefit for me has ever come out of anothers suffering except the suggering of the Lord Jesus HIMSELF cause he took my place, dying and suffering as me and not just for me. You see, if he was only a substitute then we still remain and sin still remains, but He took sin out of the way NAILING IT TO HIS CROSS, not your cross until you see yourself IN HIM. If you have a substitute mentality no wonder you cant see the truth. Blinded by tradition and religion is your problem.

My thoughts on the origin of sickness, disease, pollution, and a problematic society, is a creation who have misused the earth, as well as our earthly bodies.

Adam was not created to die, but disobedience was the result of his rebellion. The first Adam plunged us into a rebellious state, and in this nature we have been rebelling ever since. The last Adam, the Lord from heaven made the ALL new, and in our new nature, there is no sickness, no death, and no suffering.

We may suffer to leave our old nature, but he told us to reckon ourselves dead. To reckon is more then just a thought, it actually means to take into account your death, to have a ledger, and a ledger is in fact, what is placed on the gravestone. It is the true acknowledgement that we died with him.

You ever notice how long it takes us to recognize something. Again I see how long it has taken for us to move from law to grace, and the law covenant was finished more than two thousand years ago.

Dominion, an abundant life, sitting in heavenly places, with the devil under our feet, and walking in the kingdom, which is righteous, joy, and peace does not sound like a life of suffering.

The bible says the leaves of the tree are for the healing of the nations on both sides of the river. My opinion is that God will complete in every man his purpose. Abraham was the father of many nations.

There are some who will not come to their true purpose on this side. The body has need of hands, feet, toes, etc...the head is finished, but the body is not complete until every man comes to understand his purpose, in his appointed time.

Our crisis is the transition from Adam, to the Lord from heaven. It is an identity crisis, where we may suffer in our journey to find ourself in Christ.

It was never God's plan for us to suffer, and this does not take from God's Sovereignty, for it was him who established the law upon the earth of seed, time, and harvest. This law gives us free choice, and our choices bring about suffering, when we are rebellious in our mistaken identity. Jesus spoke to the mind of some, before he healed them, because the mind is where we have the problem. We are affected by our heritage, what others say about us, and what we think about ourselves. Our memory is clouded with a confused mixture, and while Adam is lying to us, God is jogging our memory.

He is shaking us to remember our true heritage, our rightful genetics. If our genes go back to when we were with him before the foundation of the world, and he is our Father, we are made perfect in him.

I would say some of us suffer, but his word declares all things work together for good, and I believe God only wants the best for his creation. Jesus came to give us an abundant life, and it is the thief that comes to kill, steal, and destroy that life.

I am a mother, and I love my children and never want to see them suffer. I try to influence them when I recognize their journey will bring about suffering. Sometimes they listen, and sometimes they don't.It is my desire to see them never have to suffer. We do suffer to come to the fullness of who God says we are, but suffering is not a prerequisite for entering the kingdom of God. I see so much suffering in the world, and I do not see this always cause a person to be more spiritual.

If we believe we must suffer, there would be no reason for Jesus to have taken stripes for our healing, or for him to send his word and heal. There would be no reason to call for the saints to pray for the sick if it were part of the plan. This is my thoughts today, and I already understand our postures on the matter, are different. I believe it helps to continue to talk about thoughts, for faith comes by hearing, iron sharpens iron, and we will grow in spirit as we consider all perspectives. Love Gayle

Why that rascal! lol

You mean Adam surprised the omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent God who had already sacrificed His only begotten Son for Adam, even before Adam had sinned?

How bout instead we contemplate the Almighty God I know and is found here: "For God has bound all men(including Adam) over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all." Rom 11:3

Now what do you say we accept an almighty God that knows all and controls all rather than the little God that gets surprised by Adam's rebellion.

Do not be afraid to die for you will rise again, Gayle

God bless,
John

I have already stated how I understand scripture at this point in my life, and I believe suffering is not a prerequisite for a person to come into glory.

I have also shared about being diagnosed with cancer, myself, and through all that has transpired with this personal situation, I can not blame this condition on God. This experience I am going through is about my journey, and I never thought God put it on me. I have expressed my opinion to be seed, time, and harvest, as to the way it came about. I take responsibility for it, and realize I should take better care of this earthly body. I believe God sent his word, and healed me, because God always wants his creation healed.

A double minded man is unstable in all his ways, and we look at things through human eyes, rather than from God's eyes. I do not believe God goes to the extreme to save us, so he can watch us suffer. I am a parent, and I do not love my children the way I believe God loves his, for by his very nature, he is love. I would never desire to see my children suffer.

I think enough has been said about the subject from me, my problem at this point, is not your opinion about suffering. My problem is your lack of respect for God's creation. You can give your opinion without being condescending. You show a disreguard for those who may see it different, and patronizing me or anyone else, by quoting what is said, does not confirm, or endorse your view.

Love In Christ
Gayle

True, nothing is a surprise to God, but God also does not ordain everything. He has given man ability to choose. We can choose to eat healthy and remain healthy, or we can eat junk and suffer the consequences. Sowing and reaping, seedtime and harvest, which is simply a law of God or a principle God has initiated. So if you choose to drink alcoholic beverages until you receive cirrhosis of the liver then don't blame God for "making you drink" that was a choice of your own. If you choose to eat foods that make you 300-600 pounds and then your body starts having physical problems of all sorts, God didn't make you eat the junk and He won't make you stop either. That is up to you!
To believe that God does all of this and man has no ability to make some directional choices in his own life is ludicrous.
The word of God tells us "CHOOSE YOU THIS DAY WHOM YOU WILL SERVE." You can continue to serve self, satan, or you can choose to serve God. No I did not say self and satan are the same, as that would also be ludicrous. We have an adversary that we have to overcome and that overcoming is by the blood of the lamb, and THE WORD OF OUR TESTIMONY. I guarantee you that if you accept everything that comes down the pike as God doing it that your life will be filled with misery and hardship as the enemy will capitalize upon that. We are justified or condemned by the WORDS OF OUR MOUTH. I choose to believe that GOD loves me and that HE will not harm me in any way.
I have read all of your trite argumentative attempts John so don't bother. They have all been addressed with balance and none of your thoughts hld water anymore.
Jeremiah 29:11 tells us that God says "I know the thoughts that I have for you. Thoughts of good and not evil, and to give you an expected end." Ken Hill paraphrased edition

In spite of, not because of illness and sickness in body, on occasion, God still speaks to us bringing enlightenment, but the sickness or disease is not the teacher the Holy Spirit is still and always the teacher.

Do not be afraid to LIVE My FRIEND for it is IN HIM we live and move and have our being. And it is a wonderful place toive and no better time than the present.