The world to come, or the age/aion to come has not been put in subjection to the angels. It has however been placed in subjection to the children of God, the born again ones who are in the image of God. It will be interesting to study and see exactly what this word “subjection” actually means.

(6) But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?
(7) Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands:
(8) Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.
(9) But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Verses 6-9 give us a message about Jesus within themselves. First, we note that verses 6-8 are speaking of man, the Adamic man, I personally believe, prior to the fall. Man was made a “little lower than the angels”, yet he was still crowned with glory and honour. Man was set over the works of God’s hands. Basically what this means is that man, prior to the fall, was absolutely given dominion over everything that God had created/made. “All things” were put in subjection under the feet of the man (pre-fall Adam) and there was not anything that God did not put under subjection to his man, that was created in His image and after His likeness.

It goes on in verse 8d to say “…but now we see not yet all things put under him.” Looking at face value it could appear that this is a contradiction within just a few verses here, but, it is not! We must notice the focus is changing here. The focus is changing from the man (pre-fall Adam) who had everything (all things) placed under his subjection by God almighty, to the present state of man (post-fall Adam) and so now we see that as a result of the “fall” that this Adam who did have all in subjection to him, no longer lives in the position or condition of “all things” being under his feet in subjection to him.

But notice now that in verse # 9 the focus is once again changing. It says, “But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.”

The first change of focus we see here is that we get our eyes off of ourselves (off of the old man Adam) and onto Jesus. The next thing we see is that Jesus shared an identity with man in that he was “made a little lower than the angels”. This does not mean that Jesus was HUMAN, which is a word that refers to the fallen state of the first Adam and his progeny, of which Jesus was not a part.

It goes on to tell us the reason for which Jesus was “made a little lower than the angels”, and that purpose was “for the suffering of death”. This death, as we will see as we progress in this study, was not the single death of a single person named Jesus. It was far greater than that! It is obvious by this statement that angelic beings cannot suffer death, therefore Jesus did not come in angelic form, he came in the form and likeness of man, yet He did not possess the fallen nature of the First Adam. The only likeness Jesus had to man was that he dwelt in a physical body that was subject to death, and the purpose of this is revealed in the finished work of the cross. Jesus had to take upon himself the fleshly nature of man, but he never took upon himself the sinful nature of man until he was on the cross. For it was there (by the phrase “on the cross” I mean that which also encompasses what Jesus accomplished during his entire death, [the last seven days of His earthly life] burial, resurrection, and ascension to the Father) for it was there in the finished work of the cross that he fully identified with mankind taking upon himself the full nature of man, identifying with his sin, and thus becoming the one who as is stated in verse 9 that “he (Jesus) should taste death for every man”.

Now looking back a little bit I said that the death of Jesus was more than the death of one single individual named Jesus. On the cross He (Jesus) took into himself all of humanity and thus all humanity was upon that cross. When Jesus uttered the words “IT IS FINISHED” from the cross he was saying that all of the former identity with our former fallen state of the first Adam was now done away with. It no longer exists except in our own minds and the only way to come back to the place where we truly walk in the reality of this truth is to first hear of it, as is true with any truth. Second, we must accept it as applicable to ourselves, and third we must learn to disassociate ourselves with our former identity. Basically, realizing that the old man is dead and becoming married to the Lord, which is spoken of in Romans 7. The purpose of this union is so that we can bring forth legitimate fruit unto the Lord. As long as we are happy in our union with the old, the new life which legally belongs to us now will only be a religious thought and not a reality within us.

As we are told in this verse Jesus “tasted death for every man”. I believe we as Christians have truly missed the great depth of what actually happened in the finished work of the cross. I believe that there are many things we have missed during the time frame of Jesus’ life from the last supper, to the betrayal and into the Garden of Gethsemane and then onward to the cross, and on thru the ascension. I believe it was from the “last supper” onward that we see Jesus suffering for mankind in every realm that man has ever suffered or will suffer. In the totality of the works that Jesus partook of for and as us he suffered death in every realm in which man also had suffered death. In Spirit and in Soul and in Body. He suffered so that we could have the victory IN HIM. He took sin upon himself so that we could walk free of sin! He took our infirmities upon himself so that we could be free from infirmity. He took the stripes upon his back for the healing of all manners of sickness and disease.

(10) For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Many years ago I was reading this verse above and the Lord spoke the following into my Spirit. “If the captain of our salvation is made perfect through sufferings then the rest of the team will be perfected in the same manner”. It was not until recently when proper understanding of what He meant was given to me.

Of course I know that some will interpret this to mean that we (the rest of the team) must also suffer in order to be perfected. However, the proper understanding of this statement is that it is thru the sufferings of Christ (Jesus the man) that he and we are perfected, not our own individual suffering of any kind. You see, if there is any suffering that I or you can do/suffer that will add to the crucifixion of the Lord and its efficacy then Jesus Himself didn’t actually “finish the work” that He said was FINISHED.

God definitely is bringing many sons unto glory, and the means by which He is doing that is through the revealing of the finished work of Jesus and how that work has affected every area of our lives. Our suffering is not in our future, it is in our past. Approximately 2,000 years ago to be exact. We are realizing (making real) the absoluteness of the finished work of the cross, in and through our lives. We are becoming the sons of God and learning to accept His work as finished not only IN HIM but also IN US and FOR US or on our behalf.

(11) For both he that sanctifieth and they who are sanctified are all of one: for which cause he is not ashamed to call them brethren,

As this verse states both he that “sanctifieth” and they who are sanctified “are all of one”. There is therefore no difference in the sanctifier and the ones whom He has sanctified. Because of this He, the sanctifier, is not ashamed to call us brethren.

Since Jesus identified with mankind in His finished work on the cross, he has not ceased to identify with us. Our problem has been that we fail to identify with HIM.

Let me touch a little bit on this identity issue. I was [we were] (in times past) identified with and in the first Adam, regardless of whether we accepted that identification or not. In the same manner, we are now identified as IN CHRIST, whether we accept that true identity or not. Now, the difference is this, it is only when we learn of and accept our true identity IN CHRIST, that we begin to see the affects of it upon our lives. Even though positionally and legally you are there it must be made a reality unto and in you.

I hope this has spoken to your hearts as it has unto mine.

"A year and a half ago, we published a blog that addressed the passing of a good brother. In that writing, I mentioned that this dear saint had been purposed of God to teach us a valuable lesson. I never exactly shared the lesson at that time, knowing the opportunity would present itself later. Today, that opportunity seems ripe.

As to some background, it so happens that I was used as an God's instrument to lead this Word of Faith preacher, into the truth of Universal Salvation. However, I was never able to share with him, "God's absolute sovereignty" with any success.

So it happens, that over the many months we traded thoughts on "free will vs. One will", this brother was working on a survive forever plan. He built a compound in the country, where no matter the conditions of the world, he could independently sustain himself and his family. Along with this, our brother also eschewed the use of doctors while in addition possessing an "I will never die" doctrine. He had the faith and he was putting it into action. So he thought.

You see, just about the time he had everything set in order, our brother became ill. Having been healed on a number of occasions without the assistance of a physician, he refused to seek clinical care. He even pinned the term,"Babylonian witch doctors" on the lot of physicians. Weeks dragged on and his illness worsened. Our friend, even refused the behest of his wife, to seek medical help, and more time passed. Finally, our brother acquiesced and upon medical examination it was determined a simple infection in one of his organs had spread to other organs and through out his body. Over time, the treatable infection had turned into his death knell. A few weeks after the doctor's exam, our brother was dead, but not before he mentioned to Joian and myself that his theology had been amiss.

And I would be remiss If I didn't share my belief, that our good brother in his passing taught many an important lesson. Such was his life ordained for, by the hand of the Sovereign God. I know in my heart, upon entering paradise and meeting the Father, this saint of God was received with a, "well done, my son!" With that, I am sure our brother laid his accolade at Jesus' feet." (end quote)

Do not be afraid to die Ken, you will rise again. And if there is a generation that will not see death it will surely be those that have realized death has no more sting. They will not be counted among the "fearful" for they see God in all things.

Be blessed my friend and while you are at it pick up thy cross,

John

"The message of IT IS FINISHED is based upon a true statement, uttered by Jesus at the end of His cross experience, but the false message carries it to ridiculous conclusions. That conclusion is that Jesus meant everything was finished, including the plan of salvation, immortality, perfection, single-mindedness, etc. This message states that everything from that moment two thousand years ago is actually finished, done, complete with no further operation of the spirit of God to be accomplished. Everything that seems to be unfinished in the world is the product of the imagination of our minds, which would be changed if we would just wake up to the finished work accomplished at Calvary. This message declares that there is no need for us to refined, changed, processed, saved, restored, renewed, transformed, transfigured, translated, etc., but we are already finished and the plan of God is finished, but our mind just won’t let us see it as done.

So it is, that we see ministry preaching a finished work at Calvary, all is accomplished, none of us can add to it or take away from it, God has an appointed time for us to awaken out of our sleep and to see us in our finished state, not by works or faith on our part, it is finished and that is it. May I ask one question please? Why in the world are these teachers and those that believe in such a lie still holding meetings, sending out newsletters, making tape of the month message tapes, creating web sites, writing book after book, all saying the same thing, IT IS FINISHED? Why do people travel hundreds, even thousands of miles to attend a meeting to hear these men and women tell them over and over again, IT IS FINISHED? OKAY, OKAY, IT IS FINISHED, now everyone go home!!! Quit preaching, quit traveling to hold meetings, quit writing, quit making tapes, quit ministering conferences, quit reading out of the bible, quit quoting scriptures, quit receiving love offerings, close down your meeting houses, give away your bible computer programs to those that don’t have this revelation and quit all of your RELIGIOUS, HYPROCRITICAL WORK OF MINISTRY.

Don’t worry. They won’t because they can’t. They are not preaching truth, they are preaching deception, and deception has a life of it’s own, that delusion still wants to infiltrate the sheep of God, weaving it’s spider’s web to trap any that are weak enough to believe such a laughable fallacy. Over and over, we are told by the finished work crowd to deny the illusion of going on to the fullness of God and to JUST BE. Deny, Deny, Deny. And, for this they travel all over the United States and the world to tell us that we are finished. Sheesh. Save your money and stay home if that is what you truly believe. Can any of this religious activity change anything if God is in control? Busy little bees, making honey that we have supposedly already eaten of, in our alter finished self. For some of these so called kingdom teachers, they would be better served to get a bit acting part in the movie, The Matrix, Reloaded which Hollywood, the master of illusion and deception, has produced by taking a hybrid tale of new age concepts and eastern religious concepts and tells a tale of a world of illusion that is being exposed by NEO, THE ONE. I could swear that a lot of the terminology of the finished work sounds suspiciously like the dialogue contained in this fictional work.

Of course, the finished work is a product of wishful thinking, men and women who want to find another WAY into the completed form of the New Man, devoid of any testing, any process of dissimilation and re-assimilation, and as one space cadet of this mind set said to Charlotte and I after a meeting we ministered at, “I love you, but there is no fire in Zion!” Sorry, but our God is a consuming fire and we are not going anywhere in God unless we pass through the fire of His substance.

I do believe that everyone has a right to believe what they believe and every man has to answer to God for those beliefs, but I also have a responsibility to the helpless and the weak in the Body of Christ, to let them hear a dissenting word on the falsehoods that are being allowed to speak blasphemy from kingdom pulpits, all in the name of unity and grace.

Things are not as innocent as they seem, the con is on and we are being asked to allow things to have freedom in our midst that have no business in the city of God."

This site is purposed for people to share their viewpoints, hopefully realizing we are all one body, and understanding none of us have all the answers. Obviously we have strong opinions, and in order for us to interact in a positive manner, we might preface our position with words like, I believe, its my opinion, or, my thought at this time in my journey, etc... Many visit the site, and they should be comfortable to state their opinions or questions, or revelations they might have experienced. Remember, iron sharpens iron, and faith comes by hearing. Love, Gayle

I recognize he was God's divine seed, and understand the blood comes from the Father, however I think his relationship to man, and the word becoming flesh, came by being birthed in the womb of flesh. I believe God purposed Jesus from the beginning. Adam came by way of clay, and God might have used the same method if it had not been important to come as flesh.

The unblemished sacrifices were a type and shadow or a picture of a perfect sacrifice that would pay the debt for all of mankind. I surmise his plan from the beginning was to send himself in a man, and identify with creation, but overcome flesh to manifest his purpose.

I recall that sin is missing the mark, and although we minister this to a person in an identity crisis, we truthfully do not believe it ouselves. Jesus never missed the mark, he prayed Father, if it be your will that this cup pass, and he stayed on target.

His purpose was to die a cursed death for all of creation, to become sin, and take our judgment on himself. He had to satisfy the law written to the Jew, and establish a new covenant.

He fulfilled the requirement of the Law Covenant completely, he preached Isaiah 61, proclaiming the acceptable year of the Lord, and as a result his ministry was finished.

Jesus said "it is finished," and he is above all to be praised for the ultimate price he paid with his life for all mankind. He is the head of a many membered body, and we are that body.

Although his purpose on earth is finished, and we preach out of a finished work, It is my conviction that our purpose is not finished, and I believe each member of the body has a purpose to complete. It is my personal belief that we all come to purpose, whether on this side or on the other.

I also conclude with my thoughts about suffering, Jesus learned by the things he suffered and I also have learned so much by those things I suffered. The word tells us that flesh and blood can not enter the Kingdom of God, and I watch our flesh grow old, our bodies are gradually fading, and deteriorating. We are becoming less, and him inside of us is the focus. He is increasing with every breath until it becomes all him.

Our physical bodies are the dwelling place for the Lord from heaven. I regard them as the embodiment of the true treasure.

When I consider the last sting as death, I think about shedding this old man, as in the atoms, and I believe there will be an Enoch generation. My thought is that some do not believe there are two of us. The bible deals with the two natures from the beginning to the end, and uses types and shadows to express this point. An example was Satan was a liar from the beginning, and Cain was a liar from the beginning, but Abel was the other nature. Esaw hath God hated, but God loved Jacob. Two natures with Saul and Paul, and this was one man. There will be two in the bed, and two in the field, and only one taken.

We died with him, and we are resurrected with him to sit in heavely places, and to recognize the new man. We have defeated the old Adam, and that nature is under our feet, when we know who we are in Christ.

The finished work is completed judicially, and we walk it out experiencially. We so identify with our flesh, that we do not want to see it go back to the earth where it came from.

The Spirit of us came out of the foundation of the world, and ultimately the place we go back to. I know we gather information from biblical resources, as well as our experiences, but change seems to be the most difficult process for us to encounter. And change is about transition from one state to another. The old man, to the new creation. A Law Covenant, to the Kingdom, the Covenant of Grace. This change is going on two thousand and at least nine years for us to enter into and understand.Most have not encountered the new covenant as yet.

We might not have to suffer and experience the cross, but we will learn just as Jesus did by those things we suffer. Our purpose will bring about obstacles to overcome, and we will find ourself in the book of life, just as he did. This is my view in consideration of where my journey has taken me thus far, and I am open to changing my opinion as I grow and experiience life. I am thankful for different views, and welcome others to take their liberty, and express their opinions. Thanks for reading, Love, Gayle

The carnal man seeks to enter in by any means,, save the cross. All men will suffer the cross other wise how might we know Him and be identified with Him.

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us" 2Tim 2:12

We die to live ..... simple as that and you cannot have it both ways.

In His Sweet Lord Jesus,

John

Example, I can have a Bible and the greatest Bible programs on my computer but if I never open them, never expose myself to them then nothing will develop in me and/or thru me. Therefore I bring my body under subjection to study and seek God not from a religious standpoint but from a desire to know Father more.

Knowing you as I do, I know that just knowing a few people who have great revelation in their lives as does your husband, and the others with whom you associate, and just hanging around them has never caused an iota of growth within you. It is when you have exposed yourelf to hear these truths and to submit under Godly leaders and also when you have studied hours on end that these truths have been worked into you. I will also give you a pat on the back saying that the growth in your spirit man has been a phenomenal rate. You have been as a sponge that was dry and you have found a source of water that has caused you to absorb a great measure in a short time.
Though it has been costly at times it has been well worth the cost. It will also produce in you and around you doors of utterance that many will never have. Let God arise and the enemies will be scattered.

Thanks for listening!
Your Brother IN Christ,
Ken

The commentary above by JP Eby, a great man of God in his own right, and a great author, though all of his dissertations are not absolute gospel, as is none of ours as we are all learning.
I would ask the same thing of the "reconciliation message folks". I have heard some say that teach reconciliation that we should have no more meetings, gatherings, services, conferences, etc... and some have went as far as to say get rid of the Bible in these camps and yet he is quick to throw an arrow at camps outside of his camp. How hypocritical!
I do not believe these doctrines of suffering they present but I do not cast them away as not being brethren or sisters in the Lord, as they seem to want to do to others who simply disagree with them and their limited non-gospel message.
He said something about these "finished workers" traveling miles and miles to hear another person say that "it is finished", when the exact same is true about the suffering for someone else camp is guilty of. And the ultimate reconciliation camp is also guilty of the same thing. Traveling 1000's of miles to get with another small handful of blue hairs that somehow all believe alike. What's the difference? THERE IS NONE!
I have never and will never speak out against the medical profession. They are people who are needed at times and I honor them in and for their service to humanity that cant get the victory over whatever malady they are suffering at the time. But I will also not negate the power of God to heal through the power of His love and thru the stripes Jesus took upon His back for my healing and his death for my salvation. Nothing I can do can add to that salvation and /or healing except my believing into that which is a provision for me.
I would personally never tell someone not to seek the medical help they need especially if you do not have the faith for your deliverance. Go get help! But there is a better way, that's all I am saying.
It has been a LONG time since I have seen one person who is of UR belief and of the suffering belief receive any healing from the power of God and most in fact have had to go to so many doctors (thank God for them) that they are having financial troubles making ends meet because of their conditions. What you accept and tolerate will only grow.

As for me, give me a good old Pentecostal meeting where the anointing of God is moving and flowing and people are being touched and healed by the power of God and souls are being convicted of their lifestyles of sinful ways and repenting and changing toward a walk with God any day over these dead dry meetings I have been in where nothing changes and folks are only having relationships with like-minded believers. A bunch of spiritual homosexuals, sons with sons working that which is unseemly and producing nothing but a major case of spiritual aids in and among the body they associate with. Having their own private pity parties talking about what they are suffering now and how it is allegedly helping them or someone else. GROW UP PEOPLE!

But when the sons of God will come in to the daughters of men and they will love her with unconditional love there will be an open door and seed of God will be planted and God will be produced.

The finished work is not wishful thinking at all it is truth that will transform ones life as they allow that truth to infiltrate every facet of theirlife. Taking the focus off of what I can supposedly do on my own and for myself and realizing that HIS WORK did the job and that as I believe into HIM it affects every area ofmy life through Spirit, Soul, and Body.

The more I hear of this suffering message the more I wanna puke. Talk about deception, this mess is deception gone to seed. So go to your meetings and suffer together all you want it hasn't produced anything of value for you and or anyone else and it NEVER WILL. Only HIS SUFFERINGS which were my sufferings will produce anything of value and only HIS DEATH, which was my death will produce anything of lasting value for the world today.

And when we meet in that glorious realm beyond this one we will sit and laugh together at the foolishness of all of our preachings as we will then know that all outside of Him is vanity and vexation of spirit in the first place. Until that day be blessed in your suffering, your reconciliation, your finished work, your Pentecostal, Baptist, Methodist, Lutheran, Cathoic, or whatever doctrine you believe for God will work in you in His own good time, as well as He will with me. For that I am greatly thankful!