Last Edited on 9-Oct-2008 9:32 PM

Oh the madness of the carnal mind, ever seeking but never able to come to the Truth.

I see where the patriarchs (spelling) of the old testament entered into a new dimension, if you will, by FAITH.
They saw the promises and many obtained them BEFORE an appointed date and time. (The Death and resurrection of Christ).

Now, the Mayans saw something just like the Magi saw the star. Neither culture was of our faith. As a matter of fact, the Mayans were heathen and sacrificed babies to their Gods...but.....they did see something. The heavens do declaire HIS glory.

I have always said/believe that every religion, cult, etc... is based on a little bit of truth and then goes out on a limb.

I enjoyed Mary Lou's article but am careful as to swallowing it hook, line, and sinker. We as Christians KNOW that we are entering a NEW DAY. And there are many and some that I know personally that are experiencing a rememberance. I heard an amazing teaching not long ago by Kelly Varner and one by Clarice Fluitt and they are 'REMEMBERING' many things BEFORE the foundation of the world. It's quite an amazing teaching.

Last night I was reseaching DNA. OUR DNA, is a code. It is numbers and letters based off the Hebrew alphabet. There are 22 amino acids in our composition. There are 22 letters in the Hebrew alphabet. The 3 main factors of our DNA = YHVH. God! The number 10 -5 - 6. Y in Hebrew for GOD, H = Son V=Holy Spirit/mother. The H is repeated.
ARE YOU READY FOR THIS>>>>>>>>> HOLD ON TO YOUR HATS>>>>>>
YHVH = 10+5+6+5= 26 !!!!!!!!!!
If the same seed dwell in you that raised Christ from the dead...it shall quicken your mortal body.

Whether it happens in 2012 or 2008 so be it!

Bev

Last Edited on 10-Oct-2008 1:17 PM

A 2003 novel by Leo McKay, Jr..

The number of letters in the English and Interlingua alphabets, if capital letters are not distinguished from lowercase letters.

The number of miles in a marathon rounded down (26 miles and 385 yards).

Michigan is the 26th state to be admitted to the United States.

Often the number of episodes in a television program each year; this allows one new show per week for half the year, and one rerun per week for the rest of the year.

The alias of punk rock singer Doc Corbin Dart

The age at which males can no longer be drafted in the United States

A Rubik's Cube can always be solved in 26 moves or less

The "joke throw" in the game of darts, where a player throws 20, 5 and 1 when aiming for 20 (or treble 20). In professional darts, throwing 26 usually results in sneers or laughter from the audience.

A dice game popular in the midwest United States from the 1930s to 1950s; players had to roll a chosen number 26 times or more, exactly 13 or fewer than 10

The number of the French department Drôme

and lastly, with a desire to keep things relevant, who in the world knows what "26" means in the world of Wall Street accounting [wink]

That age was recently changed, I believe it is now 42.*Since the infamous 'Patriot Act'.

Let me come down off that soap box a minute and address anonymous. Dear sir or mam, I think there may be a possibility that you misunderstood Mary Lou's point in her dissertation. I do not believe for one minute that she is saying that we should all just follow the mayan calendar and that all it says and all that people say about is truth. What I think she is saying is that it as well as many other beliefs can have some truths to them and we should be careful not to disdain truth no matter what package it comes wrapped up in. In example, she made a reference to Buddhism and/or Buddhist teaching. She wasn't saying we should become Buddhists. It is true that many so-called Christians would immediately turn off any thought that they found Buddhists to believe as truth, but as not every thought that all Christians bring out is truth, neither is every thought of a Buddhist. But they are not the enemy, they are just seekers of truth. Bev said it well, that every religion must have some basis in truth in order for it to appeal to the missing part within humanity. Our job as children of God is to seek out truth (JESUS IS TRUTH) and find truth wherever we can find HIM. One key that I try to use in my own life is this. If it points me away from Jesus, denies Jesus in any way, and causes me to lose my Jesus focus, then I don't worry about it or even give it another thought. Someone said recently that we need to take the Bible and find Jesus in every passage. What a thought. YOu might ask then if I am Jesus only. I would have to answer with this, NOT YET THERE IS STILL TOO MUCH OF ME LEFT. (Tongue in cheek)

So I say in closing: Seek God, Love each other, Look for Jesus (Where He is IN HIS BODY) and do good to all men as much as possible. For it is the same measure of love that you express to others that will return to you as your harvest. OUch, Oh me, and Amen!

Love IN Christ,
Ken Hill

JESUS HIMSELF TALKED ABOUT "RAISING YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS". NO HE DIDNT USE THOSE WORDS SPECIFICALLY BUT HIS VERY TEACHINGS WERE TO BRING MAN OUT OF WHAT THEY THOUGHT INTO A NEW DEPTH OF THINKING. THE APOSTLE PAUL ALSO SPOKE VERY CLEARLY OF RAISING OUR CONSCIOUSNESS WHEN HE SAID; "LET THIS MIND BE IN YOU WHICH WAS ALSO IN CHRIST JESUS...." IF THAT IS NOT A CHANGING AND A RAISING OF OUR WAY OF THINKING, WHICH IS YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS, THEN I DONT KNOW WHAT IS.

OF COURSE IF YOU ARE SATISFIED WITH THE THINKING OF THE FIRST ADAM THEN JUST STAY THERE. OR BETTER YET IF THE RELIGIOUS THINKING OF YOUR DENOMINATION OR NON-DENOMINATION IS CAUSING YOU TO WALK IN ALL THAT GOD HAS THEN PLEASE REMAIN THERE. BUT IF YOU TRULY WANT TO SEE CHANGE IN YOUR LIFE YOU WILL HAVE TO AT SOME TIME OR OTHER CHANGE YOUR MIND WHICH IS RAISING YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS/AWARENESS.

YOU CANT THINK LIKE THE RELIGIOUS WORLD OR LIKE THE FIRST ADAM AND WALK IN THE FULLNESS OF GOD. NOT SAYING I AM THERE YET AS I AM STILL AND ALWAYS HAVING MY CONSCIOUSNESS RAISED.

GOD RECENTLY GAVE ME A SERIES OF MESSAGES ON THE THOUGHT OF RAISING YOUR CONSCIOUSNESS. THIS WAS NOT A MESSAGE I WAS COMFORTABLE WITH DUE TO FOLKS WHO LIKE YOU APPEAR TO BE CLOSED MINDED. BUT TO MY AMAZEMENT WHEN I MINISTERED THIS SERIES OF MESSAGES IN A TRADITIONAL NON-DENOMINATIONAL PENTECOSTAL CHURCH WE HAD THE GREATEST RESPONSES FROM THE PEOPLE OF ANY MESSAGE I HAVE PREACHED IN MANY YEARS. PEOPLE ARE HUNGRY FOR A CHANGE AND IT WILL TAKE A CHANGE OF CONSCIOUSNESS TO SEE A CHANGE IN ANYTHING IN OUR LIVES.

YOU CAN ABIDE IN SELF-CONSCIOUSNESS, RACE-CONSCIOUSNESS, CLASS-CONSCIOUSNESS, SIN-CONSCIOUSNESS, OR YOU MAY COME TO THE PLACE WHERE YOU EXPERIENCE THE TRUE GOD-CONSCIOUSNESS. THE CHOICE IS YOURS, YOU CAN REMAIN WHERE YOU WANT OR TRANSITION AS YOU DESIRE. GOD IS WAITING ON US TO MOVE INTO THAT WHICH HE HAS PROVIDED ALREADY IN THE FINISHED WORK.

LOVE IN CHRIST,
KEN HILL

Now pick up your cross, pilgrim

It was not my intent to cause division with the posting of Mary Lou's article.

I found her words thought provoking, with a revelatory witness to myself.

I was astounded as to how quick the post took on a life of its own, from sarcasm to true convictions of understandings.

After reading this article, It brought to mind these scriptures: Rom 12:1 I beseech you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God to present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God, which is your reasonable service.
Rom 12:2 And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, in order to prove by you what is that good and pleasing and perfect will of God.

Presenting your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, pleasing to God. To identify with Jesus Christ the Pattern SON!!
Not to Identify with the circumstances that surround US!!

When we identify with something, we take on it's nature...
Nature = Name, Which Name / Nature will we take?

Through our journey of understanding of truths in our Father, the truth comes to pass that what we posses cannot be compared to the ALL & ALL our Father IS!!

Bev brought up a good point.
*Quote*
I have always said/believe that every religion, cult, etc... is based on a little bit of truth and then goes out on a limb.

I like to say it this way, the truth one has can become an idol in ones life, causing idol worship or worship of the so called knowledge / understanding one has...

Making Romans 12:1&2 ineffective in one's walk, due to not taking on the Nature / Name of what was accomplished on the Cross for ALL. That being Jesus Christ!!!

I bid All the Peace & Love of our Father,

OTHER,
AKA Bob...

Here is maybe a better quote:

"Jesus does not give recipes that show the way to God as other teachers of religion do. He is Himself the way."

Mary Lou likes to mix with That which cannot be mixed. Such is the confusion of Babylon. Not many believe Jesus is enough.

Jesus Christ is MORE then 'enough' in my life.
He is the ONLY source, the ONLY way for me and my house.
Apparently, Anonymous is in the dark and does not know me.
But there are those on this site that can attest for my walk/works.

I was baptised and filled with the HOly Spirit (and yes, I'm a tongue talker without shame) 35 years ago. In that time, I have been to hell and back and return always with a good the report...that Jesus Christ is LORD of ALL.

Knowing what it is to suffer and taking up my cross and following Christ is nothing knew to this battled scarred
chic. I will stand and witness that I have seen my brothers Ken and Mike fight the good fight as well. But NOW I see a maturing in all where we know how to enter a rest as we come into the understanding of a finished work.
As we come into a revelation of the 3rd day and see the manifestation of the Kingdom of God. Because we have put on the mind of Christ. We are being transformed and understand where it it that we are seated.

Again, I say MOST of the battles among Christians is with 'words'.. semantics. I say to the ignorant...break out your dictionaries and a Thesauras it works wonders along with an open bible.

Some say higher conciousness....some say mind of Christ.
I don't care if you call it a renewed mind or a purple hat....but just get the job done! And STOP with the accusations and judgement...because you're exposing yourself through ignorance and a closed mindset.

Bev

"Two for the young lady, Paco"

And no, I'm not talking about seeing that there is an element of truth in all the religions, of course there is; His body was fragmented, which is why Adam was told he could eat of all the trees of the garden except the one (carnal mind, which is in all the trees). But what you are missing, for one, is that which is hidden in corruption can only be distilled with the lees (corrupting error) going to the BOTTOM, not exalted as if IT was any great thing.

This is done through the mind of Christ giving revelation about where that fragment fits the pattern SON, and then the Spirit making it LIFE to the hearer. It is corrupted WORD, and WILL NOT be raised from the dead (corrupting error /person holding the Truth in UNrighteousness) without the Spirit "distilling" it out of the corruption it is being held in.This is the true purpose of the feast of Tabernacles.

There is no life, apart from Him, and knowledge apart from the revelation of the Spirit quickening it, does not add one cubit to your stature (of Christ within). So even if you know that something is Truth, if He doesn't quicken it to you, ie. adding it to the Christ being formed in you, it profits you NOTHING. And how do you know if it has profited you? By Who is exalted, ie. the fruit it bears. The Spirit always exalts the one who sent it; this is how you test the spirits, and this spirit is not of God and His Christ.

Additionally, the ERROR that has waylayed those that would be kings of the King, is that the scripture that we were one with Him from the foundation of the world has been corrupted by this gainsaying spirit of Core, which is running rampant in the Kingdom circles now. We were one with Him, has been taken to mean that we are Christ, and therefore divinity. NO! . We were one with Head, and the church is the body, Adam knew his wife and they were one is the natural pattern, which is why He spoke of the natural witness of man and his wife being one flesh, in conjunction with the church.

The suble difference that the serpent nature has provided so astutely, is in the fact that those that believe this way (that we are Christ), are actually saying the pattern is; one is all there is, whereas the Truth is, One plus one = 2, that are JOINED to BECOME one. You have to have the TWO to begin with. Christ IN YOU, is the hope of glory, not we are Christ. If you are not awakening to RIGHTEOUSNESS (right pattern), what are you awakening to?

I ask where is the discernment!

I just got back from a week of celebrating the Feast of Tabernacles...and what a glorious week I had with my family and my Lord.

To me this is what it all comes down to...the Feast that represents the CONSUMMATION, the FULLNESS of the Godhead dwelling within. None of us know the day or hour when He will RETURN in FULLNESS...but we do know the SEASON...and the HARVEST will culminate sometime during the Feast of Tabernacles. Whewww....GLORRRYYY!

I also wanted to add my thoughts to those that have taken offense with the comments of 'anonymous'. I like what Paul has to say on the matter...so I will quote from him...

" SO THEN, let us [apostles] be looked upon as ministering servants of Christ and stewards (trustees) of the mysteries (the secret purposes) of God.
Moreover, it is [essentially] required of stewards that a man should be found faithful [proving himself worthy of trust].

But [as for me personally] it matters very little to me that I should be put on trial by you [on this point], and that you or any other human tribunal should investigate and question and cross-question me. I do not even put myself on trial and judge myself.

I am not conscious of anything against myself, and I feel blameless; but I am not vindicated and acquitted before God on that account. It is the Lord [Himself] Who examines and judges me.

So do not make any hasty or premature judgments before the time when the Lord comes [again], for He will both bring to light the secret things that are [now hidden] in darkness and disclose and expose the [secret] aims (motives and purposes) of hearts. Then every man will receive his [due] commendation from God." (1 Cor. 4: 1-5 Amplified.)

We are to know NO MAN after the flesh but only after the Spirit. I do not need to have any 'background' info on any person on this site b/c the Spirit of Christ searches all things and leads me into all truth regarding any individual that writes on here. My Spirit bares witness to what Anonymous and BB have written. This does not take away my love for others that have also shared...for I am of my Father and His will is to bring forth LIFE. We are called to spur one another on to love and good deeds...these good deeds are those of allowing the FINISHING WORK to take place so that we will be those HOLY VESSELS met for the Master's use. I for one do not want one iota of mixture in my vessel. I want to be HOLY, CLEAN, CLARIFIED, PURE for my FATHER...I want to be the place that my Lord can finally have a place for HIS HEAD to REST. Let us all keep our eyes single as a dove on HIM...giving Him the PRE-EMINENCE in all things.

Shalom.

----------------------------------------------------------AGREE. That is the way I understand it too.

I love your user name....powerful.

I thank you all for your posts and opinions but a wise man once said that a man with an experience is never at the mercy of a man with an argument. I believe that is so true. I have had an experience with God as have many of the writers on this website and continue to daily experience HIS goodness and Grace in measures that I cannot explain nor would I try. KNowing the book is good, but knowing the author makes the book take on more and greater light.

I do find it interesting that many who want to argue on this site believe in the reconciliation of all men unto God, as do I, but yet they still enforce their arguments as if someone not believing them is going to change Gods power of reconciliation. Nothing, doctrinally, belief wise, or any type of understanding we can have now or in the future will stop Gods plan of ALL IN ALL.

Love IN Christ,
Ken Hill

If however you think that by your own personal suffering that this makes you closer to Christ then I feel sorry for that mentality as it holds no validity with scripture. Either Jesus did it for us or He did not. I believe He DID, and cannot in any way be convinced otherwise.

Those who suffer today (physical suffering) including myself in my own physical sufferings are doing so because we fail to truly believe in Jesus' ability to heal us and therefore without sounding arrogant in this even my own suffering is due to ignorance of a provision made already.

Ignorance has two aspects. Ignorance cause you honestly dont know about something as you have never heard or learned that thing. Or ignorance because you ignore that which is said. One is excusable and one is not.

I am sure that many who view these pages and posts disagree with me but that is OK. I do not in any way think I am better than anyone else who disagrees with my understandings but I refuse to drink the koolaid of anyone if they have no scriptural validity for their opinions.

So if you choose to suffer physically thinking that it somehow makes you closer to God enjoy your ride, but dont expect me as a passenger on your train.

Love IN Christ,
Ken Hill

I snuck around that cross and thought I was free. Then one day that cross caught up and fell right on me. I've not been able to rid my self of it since. Such is the way of God's love and only those that experience it shall know of it. Thank God that cross moves and it shall ever move through all the ages until every last soul has experienced the cost Jesus paid. To know Christ is to know His Cross for they are the same.

" For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth." Heb 12:6

I didn't choose to be a son, He chose me. And for that I am ever so thankful.

NO WONDER THE WORD OF RECONCILIATION AND SONSGIP MESSAGE HAS SO FEW WITHIN IT IF THAT IS THE THOUGHTS THEY ARE PRODUCING NOW.

LET ME GIVE YOU AN EXAMPLE OF YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF SUFFERING IN AN OUTREACH SESSION.

COME AND JOIN WITH US THE "SONS" OF GOD. YOUVE BEEN ENJOYING LIFE WITH THE BLESSINGS FLOWING NOW COME AND JOIN US IN THIS SUFFERING. MAN I AM SURE THAT WINS A LOT OF PEOPLE. NOT ME!

BUT JESUS SAID; in Matthew 11:28 - 30
Matthew 11:28-30
(28) Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.
(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.
(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
COME UNTO ME ALL YE THAT LABOR AND ARE HEAVY LADEN AND I WILL GIVE YOU REST."

I challenge you to take the time to look up these words in this verse and see if they fit in your doctrine of suffering, after all, these are Jesus' words.

Labor comes from a word that means "feel fatigue".
Heavy laden = loaded up and overburdened....
Rest - repose and exemption and refreshing

This just doesnt fit with your message Pilgrim. It seems you would say come unto me all of you that want to be sons and I will make your life hell and load you down with all types of anxiety that you havent had up until now.
Quite an invitation for sure. One I once again will pass on.

Matthew 11:29
(29) Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Every word in these verses cry out against your theory.
Yoking with the Lord is what makes us victorious not beaten and suffering hardship after hardship. Finding REST = intermission and recreation for your souls = deals with the mind and when the mind is at rest the body is also.

Matthew 11:30
(30) For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light.
The yoke is the "beam of balance" and balance will make your load/burden smaller which is what the word light means.

You know I find it strange that some really great men of God whom I know personally have fallen prey to this "I must suffer and by doing so I somehow am a Son of God" mentality and they have also taken it to the point where some of them are saying it is their suffering that is somehow going to produce something in the Body of Christ as if what Jesus did was not enough for them, now they must complete His work. What a laugh that is! Pitiful but laughable.

Yet the word tells us HE, not us is the Alpha and Omega and that he which hath begun a good work in us will complete that same work. It is not completed by our suffering. It was completed IN HIS.

I know that you will disagree with this but this is for the others who have yet to close their minds to truth.
As I have said earlier, if you choose to suffer go for it. But if you choose to be a true son you will realize that the sons of God are those whom Jesus saod would be more than conquerors through HIM, not thru their suffering.

In closing, a few years ago I was reflecting on this verse and the Lord spoke to me the following: He first asked me what is a conqueror? I answered that a conqueror was one who fought an enemy and totally gained the victory over that enemy. The Lord basically confirmed within my spirit that the answer was correct. Then He answered within my spirit that MORE THAN A CONQUEROR WOULD THEN BE ONE WHO WAS ABLE TO WALK IN THE SAME VICTORY AS THE ORIGINAL CONQUEROR WITHOUT HAVING TO FIGHT THE SAME ENEMY. Man that rung out in my spirit like nothing I had ever heard before.

If you are still fighting/struggling/warring with an enemy I have great news for you. Jesus conquered the enemy (all of them) and you and I thru His Finished Work are more than conquerors as we get to walk in HIS victory without even a fight. After all the warfare is accomplished. Quit fighting a defeated enemy and simply walk in the victory already yours.

Blessings in Jesus Name to all who read these words.
Your brother IN Christ,
Ken Hill

11 Woe to them! For they have run riotously in the way of Cain, and have abandoned themselves for the sake of gain [it offers them, following] the error of Balaam, and have perished in rebellion [like that] of Korah!" (amplified)

Book of Jude

"have abandoned themselves for the sake of gain" Jude 11

That is at the very core of today's "it is finished" philosophy ...... one of a long line of doctrines that make up the "prosperity gospel" Grab every corruptable treasure this world has to offer because you are finished and perfected.

And the drug dealer and the pedophile down the street are finished and perfect too. So invite them into your home for fellowship.

Oh the insanity of the soul that avoids death by any means!

and yes the proponents of this doctrine believe we are already resurrected. It's as good as it's gonna get.

Oh my dear friend, Christ and His Cross will catch up with you in His appointed time. This is how God makes selfish sissies into mature sons. Everyone gets their turn to step into some big boy pants.

When Christ said "It is Finished".....
Then Just WHAT WAS FINISHED????????? What was finished??

According to Anonymous...seems like nothing was finished and WE have to go and do it all over again.

According to Ken, there is a 'REST'....

If I choose rest, then I'm a sluggard, coward, thief, drug dealer, prosperity chaser, etc.. and will be splitting hell wide open.

For the sake of the readers trying to make up their minds,and receive revelation on this...I surely hope someone answers this question.

Seriously,
Bev

"Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon the holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy to anoint the most Holy." Daniel 9:24 KJV

In 457 BC the decree of Artaxerxes released the Jews from captivity of Babylon and allowed them to return home. This date is used with those who study prophecy with Daniel’s seventy weeks and where Jesus said to forgive seventy times seven. 69 (weeks) x 7 is 483 prophetic years. 483 added to the BC number of 457 gives us AD 26 when Jesus came forth into His ministry. Jesus was not born in 0 AD. The calendar system we use tried to adjust the dates from His birth and is off a few years. For 69 weeks (483 years) God dealt with the people of Israel to accept Him as their God. He extended His hand towards them. God spoke directly to Hebrew people. But He was rejected because they went after another spouse (other gods). Jesus ministered for three and one-half years which is the middle of the seventieth week. He was killed. Three and one-half years later, Stephen was stoned finishing the seventy weeks of Daniel. The Hebrew people had rejected the ministry of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit through Stephen.

We shall not develop a discussion on the seventy weeks because we wish to focus our attention on the last portion of the verse. The study of biblical time tables while appropriate for some is not an area for us to develop. Rather we wish to explain the six particular prophetic messages which are: 1) finish the transgression, 2) make an end of sins, 3) to make reconciliation for iniquity, 4) to bring everlasting righteousness, 5) to seal up the vision, and 6) to anoint the most Holy. All six of these were finished in the last week, the 70th week.

Let us discuss the first one, finish the transgression. There must be a finish to sin. In truth it ended before it began. We know that death (the wages of sin is death) is the fruit of sin, the end result, the finish of it. Yet, we also know that Jesus brought life and immortality to light. We know that death is swallowed up of life through the victory of the cross (1 Corinthians 15:55-57). Genesis 1:1 states: "In the beginning God created..." God had a plan, a purpose for His creation. His plan was a complete, holistic, harmonious approach.

The word "beginning" has within its scope of meanings "firstfruit" (see our message on the firstfruit). Christ was the firstfruit of God’s creation. John 1:3 reveals "All things were made by Him; and without Him was not anything made that was made." The pre-existent Christ was a firstfruits, a pattern. He offered Himself as a sacrifice, a lamb slain, before sin occurred! Isaiah 46:10 states that the "end is declared from the beginning (firstfruits)." The ending of death is declared from the beginning. Sin ended before it began! The life of God was shed before anything was created because it was covered by the blood so that sin could not be victorious.

If sin occurred before there was a sacrifice offered, its decimating ways would precede the life which comes from God. No my friends, sin occurred after life came. Sin runs its course - to its end which is to be swallowed up into the life of God. "When lust has conceived, it brings forth sin; and sin, when it is finished, brings forth death (James 1:15)." The word "finish" here has in its meaning: to bring to perfection, an end, a complete end, to complete entirely. When sin has is its complete work in you, when it finishes its course, it causes you to come to Christ! Think about your time of initial salvation. When sin had its end in you, you realized you needed help. In desperation you cried unto God and He delivered you. When you run out of your rope, when you hang yourself high, then God steps in to put an end of sin in your life. The finished, complete work of sin, brings salvation.

Sin occurs as part of the process to bring us unto eternal life. So we see sin in the world? Yes. Must sin occur? Yes, it leads to Christ eventually. Life will create life. All things come out of Christ in the beginning. In the end, all things will be in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:28). In between is sin. We "call those things which be not, as though they were (Romans 4:17)." We see every man in Christ, especially those that believe (1 Timothy 4:10). The end result is that when sin has completed its function, the person cries out for salvation.

In John 17:4 Jesus states: "I have glorified Thee in the earth. I have finished the work which You have given me to do." This word "finish" means: to make perfect, consecrate, of full age, maturity. What was the work that Jesus did? He manifested the kingdom of God in a person. He finished the work of God by bringing that which was invisible into light, manifestation. Jesus was the work of the Father. He was consecrated to God, that is holy, pure, undefiled. When we accept Christ as our Savior we then become consecrated, holy and undefiled. We grow in the nature and admonition of the Lord. Jesus was a mature, full of age, manifestation of the kingdom of God. He moved under divine authority. When we were a slave to sin we moved under its dominion and grew in the strength of sin. But when we came to Christ, we accepted new leadership and grow in the strength of Him who bought us, purchased us from sin.

When Jesus finished the work, He completed what He had begun in pre-existence. He was the author of the faith in the Spirit realm and now He was the finisher of our faith in the natural realm (Hebrews12:2). In Hebrews the word "finish" means: one in whom in his own person raised faith to perfection. Faith normally is considered an "ethereal"realm. But here we seen that Jesus took that which was spirit and encapsulated it into the flesh. He caused faith to be seen in a person. Faith is a person who lives, manifests the life of God.

Jesus presented in His life a higher order. He lived above sin, even as the saint can do. Consider 1 John 5:18: "We know that whosoever is born of God sins not; but he that is begotten of God keeps himself and that wicked one touches him not." We can live the life of God in this flesh and sin not. Jesus went on to say in John 4:34: "...my meat is to do the will of Him that sent me, and to finish His work." As a Son, He was to finish the work of God. The word "finish" here means: to perform. Complete faith is revealed in performance. Commitment accepts no excuses only performance. Performance is the result of relationship with the Father. Love constrains us to willingly sacrifice our life.

Paul was committed to excellence. He writes in 2 Timothy 4:7 that he had finished the course, kept the faith. Jesus finished the course set before Him and revealed the life of faith by living it. Paul, a man like you and I, stated that he finished his course. He lived, manifested faith. Ghandi was asked by a friend, "If you are so intrigued with Jesus Christ, why don’t you become a Christian?" Ghandi replied, "When I meet a Christian who is a follower of Christ, I might consider it." If Ghandi met you, would there be enough of a commitment to performance for him to see Christ in you? Some saints know the Lord, but allow sin to reign. Some saints are not committed to the fire of perfection.

A son, like Paul is called to finish the work of God which is to do greater works than He. This is performance. In John 19:30, on the cross, Jesus stated: "It is finished." Here the word finish means: to discharge his duties, to perform. We need to realize that that this statement of Christ was not a sigh, a whimper of a statement. Do you remember when the chief priest’s soldiers came to take Christ? He said: "I am He." Then they all fell down by the power of the spoken word. Well, when Jesus said "It is finished," the earth quaked, graves were opened, the veil was rent, and darkness covered the earth. It was a victorious statement. These words, "It is finished," caused the world to change literally and spiritually.

The end of transgression has come. "Now to Him that is of power to establish you according to my gospel and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery which was kept secret since the world began, but now is made manifest....Romans 16:25-26)" The pre-existent Christ did it all but brought faith to sight in the flesh that we might be able to walk as He did. The end of sin has come. Grace rules. Not that sin would more abound. God forbid. How should we live that are dead to sin? Can we live any longer in it? No we are freed from sin. Sin has no dominion, no rulership, no kingdom over us. We are not under the law but under grace. (Romans 6)

This brings us to the second prophetic message - to make an end of sins. When sin is done, then sin does not exist. Sin is brought to an end. Oh, you may sin "out there". It is like a tree that is cut off from its roots in the spring. The sap is still going up the tree. It may bring forth leaves, even though it has been cut off from its roots. I’ve seen some even bring forth buds of fruit. The tree is dead when it is cut, it just doesn’t know it! Jesus made an end to sin. We proclaim those things which are not as though they are (Romans 4:17). The victory of the cross is complete. The life of Christ exchanged for the death of Adam brings forth life!

Sin is done away with in Christ. He has delivered us. " Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past... And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world. Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins (Romans 3:25, 1 John 2:2, 4:10)." The Greek for propitiation is "mercy seat." The blood of the animal in the Old Testament was taken and sprinkled on the Mercy Seat in the Holy of Holies. This action by the High priest cleansed the whole nation of Israel from sin. The animal was a substitution for the nation itself. Jesus was the substitute for us. He who had no father or mother; that is He that was spirit and not of this world order was well ale to deliver us from this world. When He raised from the grave we were raised from the grave with Him. We left the realm of death with Him.

Many look to their natural flesh and see aging, pain, decay working. Do not look on the external it is a deception. For Paul declares in 2 Corinthians 4 that we are being renewed after the inner man daily. In fact, if our external house was to be dissolved we would see a heavenly one.

The third message is that to make reconciliation for iniquity. The Hebrew means perversity, depravity, guilt. The death of Christ exchanged depravity, guilt, and perversity for worth, value and freedom. The work of the cross did not just provide salvation to the soul, but rather delivered the vessel completely - "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world" (John 1:29). The work of the cross delivered all creation from the bondage of corruption (Romans 8:21). Hebrews declares: "He takes away the first, that He might establish the second." The coming of the Savior in the first century delivered mankind, the world as we know it and the cosmos of all corruption. Awake you who sleep! Shake the dust off your feet. Come forth out of the tomb of deception. Your life is hid with God in Christ. Proclaim the jubilee to the captives. The lie of the church system is: "You have to sin a little until you get to heaven when you are made perfect."

But 2 Corinthians 5:19 states: "To wit, that God was in Christ reconciling the world (cosmos) unto Himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and has committed unto us the word of reconciliation." From this verse we see Jesus reconciling all things, even the Jews who rejected Him , the Father and the Holy Spirit. This seems to be in contrast with Matthew 12:32 which reads: "And whosoever speaks a word against the son of man it shall be forgiven him; but whosoever speaks against the Holy Spirit it shall not be forgiven him neither in this world (not cosmos but "aion" meaning age) neither in the world ("aion" again in the Greek meaning age not "cosmos") to come." Who sinned that it would not be forgiven in, as some teach? Jesus was speaking to the Jews, not to the world nor to the Christians of today. Hear and understand! The Jews would not be forgiven in their "age" meaning at that time right then, nor the age to come, meaning during the time of the church, the church age. But after that God would bring them in too.

2 Corinthians 5:19 then becomes true - "...reconciling the world". The Jews had to "fill up" (Matthew 23:32) their cup as part of the plan of God. " Fill ye up the measure of your fathers, ye serpents..." Jesus would not have been offered as a sacrifice for us, if the Jews had accepted Him. The work of the cross to remove sin was/is complete. The first section of the six part prophecy of Daniel 9:24 was fulfilled with Jesus and the Jews. The Jews did the ultimate transgression - killing the Father’s son and they then proclaimed that they wanted the blood of Jesus on them (Matthew 27:25) and their children. The transgression was full. What sin could be worse than the rejection of the Son of God? Yet, even that sin was not enough to be too big for God to reconcile unto Himself. It is finished! Sin has ended by the reconciling work of Christ.

The word "reconcile" Thayer brings out in his Greek Lexicon to mean "to exchange, as exchange coins of equivalent value." Thus, if we are to reconcile the world to Christ we must exchange their filthy rags by placing their "rags" on us who are identified with Christ, that we might give them Christ. For we bear in our bodies the dying of the Lord Jesus Christ that the life of Christ might be seen (2 Corinthians 4:10-11). The exchange rate is Jesus Christ for the sins of Adam. Once the exchange is done, the reconciliation is done.

The fourth message is that of everlasting righteousness. The word everlasting means: "of long duration, a time that has an end but it is so far away it seems as though it has no end." Until all things are gathered together in Christ in the fullness of time (Ephesians 1:10), righteousness will be seen. Then only He will be seen. Righteousness is a just measure. The work of the cross brings a just end to death and sin and establishes true justice. Justice as a way of life is brought forth not a legalistic code. The work of the cross of Christ not only did away with Adam it also destroyed all legalism. He has quickened us out of death and our trespasses in which we had walked and now has translated us into the kingdom of His dear Son (Colossians 1:13). We are in Him.

"To seal up the vision..." the fifth message states. The word seal has within it the connotation of "affixing a seal" like hot wax on the back of a letter has a seal affixed on it. This shows that the letter has no been tampered with nor has anyone even tired to open that which has been sealed. When Christ died on the cross, He put an end to the ability of Satan to tamper with or even break the seal of God’s hand written, expressed image (Hebrews 1:3) Who allows us to be one with Him.

The choice we entertain is either The Law or Grace,
Choose One...

OTHER...

Last Edited on 30-Oct-2008 7:15 AM

Til then pick up your crosses, pilgrims ;-)

Anonymous,
Pick up your cross is another vague statement. Care to expound on that one for the reading audience?

I am in agreement with Ken on this one. I have never agreed with "the more we suffer the better sons we are gospel". Here's why. I look at scripture and know there is always a natural parallel. Ok, does a parent needlessly punish a child to make him a better adult? If that is the case, then why doesnt' the bus driver just hit each kid over the head with a bat as they board so that when they get to school they will learn MORE from the teachers? This makes perfect sense to me. Seems this is the Gospel according to Anonymous. Hey and What Cross should I pick up? Cause the one Christ was on...was MORE than enough and the work was finished on that one.

And then here we go with a 'Works' gospel. You gotta "DO GOOD TO BE GOOD" enough. How many chapters should I read a day to 'qualify'. Or how many meals should I fast? How about....how much money in the offering plate, and how many widows, orphans, and prisoners should I visit per week?!!!! I can see that we would all be heavy laden, burdened and need a rest after all these good works.

I have followed these discussions whole heartedly, truly seeking the Spirit of revelation in all that has been said and I cannot and do not find the gospel of peace, edification, exhortation in a need to suffer more doctrine.
I see where Christ came to deliver us, reconcil us, and minister GOOD News. That is Salvation. If being a "Son"
is more suffering then I have already been through...then count me out of your church.

Sincerely,
Bev

Sin ended before it began! The life of God was shed before anything was created because it was covered by the blood so that sin could not be victorious.

All things come out of Christ in the beginning. In the end, all things will be in Christ (1 Corinthians 15:28). In between is sin.

But when we came to Christ, we accepted new leadership and grow in the strength of Him who bought us, purchased us from sin.

Complete faith is revealed in performance. Commitment accepts no excuses only performance. Performance is the result of relationship with the Father. Love constrains us to willingly sacrifice our life."
_______________________

Other, your friend opens some good things up with the thoughts above. I like what he had to say. I believe for the most part he shares my view.

Now with these quotes of the author I might add the thoughts of mine as a footnote. His thoughts in quotations marks.

"When Jesus finished the work, He completed what He had begun in pre-existence."

I would differ and say, "no Jesus manifests in the material realm of time and space that which is seen as finished in the eternal realm. He projected His sacrifice into time a space 2000 years ago. The "positional view which is from the foundations" was, is and will continue to be demonstrated in the material world. The demonstration of Christ is ongoing and has been since Adam. It will continue until time and space is no more and the age of ages has been consummated. This takes place in each man as the kingdom is "within" and it takes place "without" as there is a corporate man. The cross of Christ is manifest within and without and it ends with a family of perfect sons in the image of Christ Jesus.

Mankind is perfect in an eternal reality however in time and space the workings of the Cross are being manifest day in day out and will continue until the last soul has been overcome by the Overcomer. This is done as man tastes the Cross and Christ. Man drinks of the cup. You cannot know Christ and His love until you know the cost(the cup) demonstrated with His crucifiction on the Cross. Each man must personally experience the cross to know the nature of Agape. Agape is one life given for another. There is no greater Love.

"Jesus was the substitute for us."

I don't believe in the "substitution view of the cross" but instead we must realize we were/are actually in Christ even from the foundation when He was slain. We are identified in Christ not substituted for. The author in most of his writing seem to have this thought thus I am surprised he varies from it with the "substitution" phrase.

" The choice we entertain is either The Law or Grace,
Choose One..."

Yes that is good, as the law of sin and death is still present in the world and as we rest in His grace He overcomes sin and death. The author is saying Law and Grace are even present today .... choose.

As I said earlier I believe this author has much more so, shared thoughts that support my view of the ongoing work of the Cross in the world.

Lastly this is the crux "the it is finished" crowd cannot get around. The place in space and time that we currently live is the "til" of 1Cor15:25

“For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.” 1Cor 15:25

Couple that with the verses of Hebrews 2:8-10 and it illustrates the difference between the “present preeminent position of Christ” and the “future consummation.”

Hbr 2:8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

Hbr 2:9 But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels for the suffering of death, crowned with glory and honour; that he by the grace of God should taste death for every man.

Hbr 2:10 For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

Here is again the "til" and the consummation that follows the "til"

1Cr 15:25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.

1Cr 15:26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death.

1Cr 15:27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him.

1Cr 15:28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

And as far as the quip I use; "pick up thy cross, pilgrim." That's just a start because when you pick up that tree the weight of it falls on you and you come to realize only Christ within can carry it. There the identification we have with Christ grows until we are one. It is a progressive work.

And the man that says "he is finished" while residing in the flesh, well ..........

Here are some hard to get around scripts that speak to our suffering:

" .... we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously...

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;...Phil. 3:10

If one refuses suffering as part of the salvation process it be best to find another religion and another God. Even then, there will still be suffering, as such is the nature of the world we live in.

You wrote..."I see where Christ came to deliver us, reconcil us, and minister GOOD News. That is Salvation. If being a "Son"
is more suffering then I have already been through...then count me out of your church."

I want to explain what 'pick up thy cross' means to me.
I have been a christian for over 20 yrs. but it has only been in the last 5-7 yrs. that I have been a FOLLOWER of Christ. In my christian days and especially during my season within the pentecostal realm....I viewed every hardship as 'from the enemy' and would immediately go into spiritual warfare against any type of suffering that would come my way. As with most charismatic's I would be the first to quote.." I am the head, not the tail, above only and not beneath, I am blessed in the city and in the field, all my storehouses are blessed...ect".

The funny thing is that the Lord used all that 'knowledge' to bring me to a place of perplexity. For I became perplexed when my husband was told that his salary was going to be cut in half, stayed perplexed when we went through all our savings ($50,000) to save our house due to trying to live on half of his salary while no other job came along,anxiously perplexed while of this happening when I was pregnant with my 3rd child and then getting the news that my husband was now laid off his job and without benefits, continued in this place of perplexity as the inheritance that I was to recieve from my grandmother ($25,000) was not given to me (either by ignorance or malice, either way Father said to me to say nothing and trust Him), really perplexed when we packed up our belongings out of our beautiful new home that we had put 20% down on and now had been foreclosed and were moving into a 100 yr. old rental with fleas, truly perplexed as now we had no benefits and the baby was due and had to get on medicaid and was humiliated, extremely perplexed as my husband went from a V.P corporate position to starting his own 'remodeling business'...code for painting houses, passionately perplexed as 2 weeks after giving birth we had ZERO money, nada, nothing, zippo, in our bank account and my milk was not coming in and I had just fed the last bottle of formula to my newborn and Father gives the instruction to stop medicaid and don't go to the government but to trust Him...and as I surrendered and called my husband to say that I did not want to go to the government that day for help but instead trust our Heavenly Father...that VERY MINUTE outside our front door were 3 huge canisters of formula....sweet perplexity, then the roller coaster of perplexity continued for a couple more years with day in and day out waiting on Him for every provision, of crying out to him...'when Lord, when? How much longer? Do you even see us? What have we done? We are your children, we tithe, we believe you, we don't know what is going on! "....and the perplexity started to become a place of UNDERSTANDING....of seeing everything our Lord went through and IDENTIFYING with Him in a way I have never done before even though I had all the head knowledge it now was being WROUGHT IN ME...of being made THE WORD in my flesh...and the culmination came for me on the night I gave birth to my 4th child in a log cabin with my labor happening in a horse's trough literally (the landlords thought it would be cute, kitchy, to have an old steel horse's trough for the bathtub...but no! it was not believe me...very uncomfortable)...and yet I soooo identified with the Lord and Mary in that very MOMENT...of understanding what it must have been like to feel so helpless of not having a mid-wife and how afraid Mary must have been...and wondering WHY?? Why would God choose to be born in a horse's stable? What have we done that we would find no place in anyone'e INN? Why Father? As my mid-wife could not get to me in time and my alternate mid-wife arrived as my baby was crowning (and I had never felt true labor before b/c in the past I had hospital births with epidurals)...I just quietly and painfully let out cries of "help Lord...help me, help me"....truly thinking I was going to die right there in the bathroom....TEARS....and finally the alternate mid wife showed up and said 'I am here, it is going to be alright, and you are going to have this baby...now PUSH!" I got in bed and on the second push she came out! Praise the Lord.

This precious daughter PROPHETICALLY represented the manchild being birthed in me...for it was during those years of all the trials, the purgings, the scourgings, the fire, the EMPTYINGS, that the FINAL EMPTYING took place...for I learned experientially what it means to DIE TO SELF, to DIE DAILY. I also learned what the Lord went through as He was like a lamb led to the slaughter and DID NOT OPEN HIS MOUTH...for all the questions slowly left me...one by one....and gave way to the words of Job..."Though you slay me Lord, I will trust in YOU".
I have learned that there really is a walk of "ON EARTH as IN HEAVEN'...for during the final months of my 4th pregnancy I actually felt like my back was going to break...I felt old, real old, like a ninety yr. old woman...and I now realize that it was due to the fact that the OLD WOMAN within was on her death bed...and she was carrying her cross....and on a HOLY NIGHT she died. The glorious beautiful CHRIST within came forth....and is the one that shares with you even now.

Oh! How I love Him and His cross. It truly brought forth LIFE in me and I am so thankful that the OVERCOMER within loved me so much that He has routed and continues to route all my enemies until HIS FULLNESS shall be seen by all flesh!

All my love to you precious Bev,
HeavenlySpy

Bev,
In an attempt to answer as briefly as I can on your question "what was finished?" I personally believe what was finished was the Old Covenant and all aspects thereof. The law of Moses and all of the aspects thereof were consummated IN CHRIST'S sacrifice. The need for suffering was consummated IN CHRIST. He suffered, as one of the posts so aptly said, not just for us like a substitute, but AS US, therefore every suffering HE suffered I also suffered IN HIM. When He said "IT IS FINISHED" the suffering was done and needs not to be done any further. Someone accused me and all "Finished Work" ministers of being children wrapped up in the prosperity message. Well even though I believe in prosperity much more so than I would the poverty message which is a (Non-Gospel no good news in it)I believe you know me well enough to know that I am not wrapped up in myself etc... Enough about that!

I believe that every scripture that speaks of our suffering that was quoted in an earlier post are all ENTIRELY speaking about that which was accomplished IN CHRIST AT THE CROSS THROUGH THE FINISHED WORK. I am smart enough to know that the outworking of each truth in the word is far greater than just speaking it or agreeing with it, but I also know that there is no suffering on a personal level, spiritual, physical, or mentally, that will ever do anything to reconcile or save anyone. That was totally Jesus' finished work. Now as the former testimony which was so great it can help you relate to someone else or deal with someone that is or may go thru that same thing, but it still cannot save them nor can it cause you to grow up in God to be a "big boy".

Having known Chuck Weller I say that his writings were great as he was a great man of God. A much studied person. But with all due respect to him I am not locked in to the doctrine as he saw it. I dont understand why anyone still chooses to remain anonymous and use that to hide under for some reason. I promise that if you are my brother and sister in the Lord and I disagree with you it wont affect our relationship in any way. Iron sharpens iron after all.

To all on this site I say may God bless you as you grow in Him.
Enjoying Immensely The FINISHED WORK,
Ken Hill

Ken said: .......... it still cannot save them nor can it cause you to grow up in God to be a "big boy"

Ken, from Genesis to Revelation the theme of suffering is displayed throughout. It is the very way of God in making sons. God has ever used suffering to bring man into union with Himself. It is a tool used in our salvation and yes with out it one could never grow up into a "big boy." I added to the few scriptures I quoted earlier to show others the long row you are going to have to hoe to get around God's use of suffering in the perfecting His saints.

" .... we must through much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God. Acts 14:22

1 Peter 2: 21: For even hereunto were ye called: because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example, that ye should follow his steps: 22: Who did no sin, neither was guile found in his mouth: 23: Who, when he was reviled, reviled not again; when he suffered, he threatened not; but committed himself to him that judgeth righteously...

1 Peter 4:12: Beloved, think it not strange concerning the fiery trial which is to try you, as though some strange thing happened unto you:13: But rejoice, inasmuch as ye are partakers of Christ's sufferings; that, when his glory shall be revealed, ye may be glad also with exceeding joy.14: If ye be reproached for the name of Christ, happy are ye; for the spirit of glory and of God resteth upon you: on their part he is evil spoken of, but on your part he is glorified.

"That I may know him, and the power of his resurrection, and the fellowship of his sufferings, being made conformable unto his death;...Phil. 3:10

Matt. 10:38 - Jesus said, "he who does not take up his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

Luke 9:23 - Jesus says we must take up this cross daily. He requires us to join our daily temporal sacrifices (pain, inconvenience, worry) with His eternal sacrifice.

Rom. 5:2-3 - Paul says that more than rejoicing in our hope, we rejoice in our sufferings which produces endurance, character and hope. Through faith, suffering brings about hope in God and, through endurance, salvation.

Rom. 8:17 - Paul says that we are heirs with Christ, but only if we suffer with him in order that we may also be glorified with Him. Paul is teaching that suffering must be embraced in order to obtain the glory that the Father has bestowed upon Jesus.

Rom. 8:18 - the sufferings of the present time are not worth comparing with the glory that is to be revealed to us. We thus have hope that any sufferings we or others endure, no matter how difficult, will pale in comparison to the life of eternal bliss that awaits us.

2 Cor. 1:5-7- if we share abundantly in Christ's sufferings, so through Christ we share abundantly in comfort as well.

Phil. 1:29 - for the sake of Christ we are not only to believe in Him but also to suffer for His sake. Growing in holiness requires more than having faith in God and accepting Jesus as personal Lord and Savior. We must also willfully embrace the suffering that befalls us as part of God's plan.

Col. 1:24 - Paul rejoices in his sufferings and completes what is lacking in Christ's afflictions for the sake of His body.

2 Tim. 1:8 - Paul instructs Timothy to share in suffering for the Gospel. Suffering is not to be asked for, but it is also not to be avoided. For the sake of the Gospel, it is to be embraced.

2 Tim. 2:3 - Paul says to take our share of sufferings as a good soldier in Christ.

Heb. 12:5-7 - do not lose courage when you are punished, for the Lord disciplines whom He loves. The Lord loves each one of us more than we love ourselves, and will only permit suffering if it brings about our salvation.

1 Peter 2:19-21 - Peter instructs that we have been called to endure pain while suffering for Christ, our example. God actually calls us to suffer as His Son did, and this is not to diminish us, but to glorify us, because it is by our suffering that we truly share in the eternal priesthood of Jesus Christ.

*******************

It evident by the Written Word that God uses suffering in the salvation and the making of sons.

Thank you very much for your kind words. I have enjoyed listening to the conversations that you and anonymous have engaged in. They have been very good. I actually get a chuckle at your 'banter' with one another and even the recent one about 'big boy' and 'big boy pants'...I said out loud as I read those posts..." Lord, I love your people"
...and felt His love for both of you when I said it...what glorious personalities He has created hasn't He?!!

You wrote..."I choose not to argue youe point with you that all this "suffering" is what has made you a son. I personally believe I am a son by relationship, His doing, not mine."

If I have given you the impression that all this suffering is what has made me a son please point that out to me...b/c I have never said those words. My point in sharing my testimony was to give a concrete witness as to what that phrase 'pick up thy cross' looked like and felt like for me.

I testify to the truth that I agree with you that it is by RELATIONSHIP that one BECOMES a son.
In the past if someone had asked me if I was 'born again' I would answer with a hearty yes! I have come to see that term 'born again' in a new light and dimension of truth.

"12 But to as many as did receive and welcome Him, He gave the authority (power, privilege, right) to become the children (sons) of God, that is, to those who believe in (adhere to, trust in, and rely on) His name--

13 Who owe their birth neither to bloods nor to the will of the flesh [that of physical impulse] nor to the will of man [that of a natural father], but to God. [They are born of God!]" (John 1:12-13 amplified)

Notice how it says that He gives the right to those that receive Him to BECOME sons of God. I believe that this world we live in has many symbols, types and shadows which points to the REALITY of the Kingdom of God found within.

In the natural world a human couple has to conceive first before they can announce that they have a child. Similarly, in the Spirit there has to be a conception. It is my conviction that this conception takes place when a person gives their heart to Jesus...(although in reality this too is only by His grace for it is Him that finds us and gives us the desire to call out for him).

Once a person has received the SEED of Christ within their earthy ground then the next phase starts to unfold and that is of the embryo beginning to FORM...to grow a heart, a mind, the senses of eyes, ears, nose, and extremities of arms, hands, feet, ect. This to me points to the glorious phases of maturity that a new believer will go through.

This process of being FORMED is a very delicate one and of a critical nature. Just as in the natural a new embryo is at the mercy of the mother as to what it will receive for nourishment, so too in the Spirit the SEED of Christ is dependent upon what it's nourishment from the FATHER will be. The Father will not allow anything to corrupt the seed within us...for the SEED IS INCORRUPTIBLE. So this process of being formed can take a very long time in some individuals depending of course as to how much one will choose to cooperate with the work of the Holy Spirit within their own lives and circumstances. For me this process took over 20 years, but for my husband it only took 7 yrs. Smile.

To have the heart of the Father FORMED within the life of a believer will usually start to take on appearance after one or more processings of Father. Once again, it depends on how much cooperation an individual will give to the cross as to determine the length of time this process takes.

For some it might only take one experience. These are those that were given a measure of grace and faith to cooperate with the Holy Spirit in the circumstances that were given to them to form THE HEART. Those that were also given the same measure of grace and faith but chose to go AROUND the cross of the particular experience of FORMING the heart of Father would then have to stay in the gestation phase longer. Truly, we see this gestational phase as that of the children of Israel in the wilderness. What should have been an 11 day journey took 40 years.

On and on this FORMING continues...to have the EARS of the Spirit, to see with the eyes of the Spirit, to touch with the hands of the Spirit and have the WALK of the Spirit.

Once this process of being formed is completed then the only thing that is left is the process of GROWING in the womb. The scripture tells us that New Jerusalem is our mother for she is FREE and from ABOVE. This glorious womb that brings forth Christ in you the hope of glory will also use the CONTRACTING pressures of the NARROW WALK to bring the ultimate goal to completion and that is LIFE!

"14 But the gate is narrow (contracted by pressure) and the way is straitened and compressed that leads away to life, and few are those who find it." (Matt. 7:14 amplified).

I find it interesting that the word EGYPT comes from the hebrew root word TSUWR and means...to bind, besiege, confine, cramp, to shut in, enclose, to show hostility to, be an adversary, treat as foe; to form, fashion, delineate.

Any woman that has ever had a baby will tell you that the time between having contractions and actually giving birth is known as TRANSITION. This period of time where the baby is moving into the BIRTH CANAL...the very NARROW PLACE...is such a painful time both for mother and baby.
There is a true struggle that is taking place. This struggle of being confined, cramped, and besieged with contractions is the place where most women cry out....JUST GET IT OUT!!!!

Our Father uses the pressure of Egypt (the world and its systems) to bring pressure upon us to want to LEAVE and never come back. These pressures if allowed to do their work will bring a believer to the point of wanting to be dead to the world. When this happens a glorious victory is wrought by our Lord for that is when one can truly say "I have been crucified to the world and the world & its systems are crucified to me'. HalleluYah!

I call this the cry of DESPERATION...for any woman will testify that this is the place where you actually start to think 'I am going to DIE, I am really going to die'. At that point it is so critical that one has loving support to hear the words 'no! you are not going to die, you are going to live and so is the baby...NOW PUSH!'

This is the place that most christians are so afraid to get to...the place of death. If most christians only knew that it is in SOWING this natural body that you GAIN your heavenly body they would surrender and would gladly be emptied of all self to bring forth the FRUIT of the tree of Life that has now grown within.

It is in shedding the old corruptible garment that the new incorruptible one is given. It is then one can TRULY say..." I am of the Lord from Heaven, the second adam, I am not from below. I am from ABOVE." Once one is born again OF God they are of that Manchild company that has been caught up to the throne. This is the position and place where one that is truly a JOINT HEIR with Jesus Christ starts to appropriate their possessions in Christ.

What an INHERITANCE!

What I have come to learn is that this is just the beginning once one is born again from Heaven. For then once again as we see in the natural there is a time of LEARNING and growing up as a child in the Kingdom of God. This is what we witnessed Jesus doing...for He grew in all wisdom, grace, power, and stature with God and man.

So Ken, this was very long and I appreciate you taking the time to read it and I hope it sheds light as to how I see the term RELATIONSHIP and how it is through the processings of Father that we BECOME SONS.

All my love,
HeavenlySpy

Once again thank you so much for your posts. They are enlightening and well stated. You asked me the following:

You wrote..."I choose not to argue youe point with you that all this "suffering" is what has made you a son. I personally believe I am a son by relationship, His doing, not mine."

If I have given you the impression that all this suffering is what has made me a son please point that out to me...b/c I have never said those words. My point in sharing my testimony was to give a concrete witness as to what that phrase 'pick up thy cross' looked like and felt like for me.

Perhaps in reading these posts and responding without seeing who wrote what I have confused your statements with that of others but I fully accept what you have so eloquently said. You are definitely a real person of strength and favor in God's eyes and are becoming a friend to me, whether you want that or not LOL. As to the banter between me and whoever this other person is if I have been offensive in anyway please forgive me as that is not my character or purpose at all. That is one reason that I do not like this method of discourse as we dont and cant unless we really know each other personally get the heart of these issues and our true heart expressed as it is hard to do that merely in writings. The greatest truths can be expressed by someone in writing and unless there is a connection, a knowing if you will of that person those writings do not take on the same effect for us if we are in relationship. Enough about that.

I have noticed something that to me is at the crux of this issue. Unfortunately I cant put this into few words so hope you will read all of this. So you know that this is not aimed at you but questioning teachings with the ability to change as God directs I make this disclaimer.

It appears to me that some use the words tribulation, chastening(s), processing(s), and others I cant think of at this moment and especially the word SUFFERING all as the same thing. I personally believe there is great difference in these terms and I now have something to study out to see what God has to say about this. I assure you that if God changes me that I am not afraid to change as HE leads. Though I absolutely refuse to drink anyones koolaid (I really hate that phrase but it gets the point across) just because they say so. LOL.

Here is one (many part) question for those who desire to address it. Personally I have always equated the word SUFFERING with sickness and disease. Some of the posts in this section also seem to mention physical conditions in their descriptions of suffering.

Heres the question: If Jesus took the stripes on His back for our healing, was bruised for our iniquities, and the chastisement of our peace was upon Him, then how can we equate any sickness and or disease with something that He would use to perfect us? If God places these things upon us to TEACH us and mature us into the Big Boy Pants (I love that phrase) then why did God the Father have Jesus take the stripes in the first place? Also how do we know what to pray for deliverance from and healing of if it is God doing this to us in the first place? Lastly, (probably not) if we truly believe ALL OF THIS IS "OF GOD" every sickness, disease, pain, malady, hardship, etc... then why would we ever pray for relief from them as we would then be praying for Gods will to be thwarted, if He did it in the first place? It would also appear that the Father and the Son have two different methods of working rather than being in unity as I have believed all of my life that they work in unity. Also why do we then need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher if all of this SHTUFF is gonna be our teacher?

I am honestly looking for answers that make sense, not that just ramble on with opinion.

Paul the apostle made a statement saying that "We preach not ourselves, but CHrist Jesus the Lord..." and it seems to me that some have begun only using their own experiences as their Gospel.

One more thought: If suffering persecution and tribulation are what gives us the "big boy pants" then those in the 3rd world countries should be much closer to God than we comfortable Americans are. After all we in our most difficult situations havent faced nearly as much tribulation and anguish as they have on a regular basis.

I look forward to responses on these thoughts.
With much love for all of you, and still enjoying the finished work.
Ken Hill

P.S. How about perhaps a first name at least.

I am up at 3AM to write a message using a recently departed brother's testimony as the foundation of my writing. He and I discussed often the origins and remedies of physical illness. I took the premise that all things are of God and thus sickness and other not so fun things are used of Him as a message and means to grow up man into His image. My friend took a contrary view and this was a message I and my friend Joian, received a few weeks prior to his death.

" I think and feel led to contact you both with a report on my life to see if either has anything from the Lord for me. I have seldom reached out this way, but am trying hard to be led in the midst of a very dark hour so forgive me if this turns out to be just me.

As late as this April, I had been serving the Lord for almost 25 years .....

During these years, I always held to the "truth" that only good things come from God and all sickness and tribulation in the flesh come from the devil. Yes, the Father chastises those sons whom He receives so they can be partakers of His holiness, but this chastisement is always in the soul as in Gethsemane as we suffer the loss of our soul in favor of His will over ours.

Anyway, I have asked God to do all to me necessary to transform me .......... In April, I started to have symptoms of my liver failing and my skin and eyes turning yellow with jaundice. Not being a believer in 'Babylonian doctors', I suffered for 6 weeks as I got more and more yellow and more and more toxic until my wife finally rushed me to the emergency room where the doctors barely saved my life through emergency surgery.

To close, it turns out that I have a cancerous tumor blocking my bile duct and causing a back up of very septic bile fluid. Drain tubes were put in the drain this fluid to remove infection so they could operate and remove the tumor. A few weeks later they went in and found the cancer was spread to my liver and abdomen and is inoperable. A week later it was diagnosed that I also have lung cancer. Bottom line is I have been sent home to die as the doctors have nothing left to do. If I do not receive a miracle in a few weeks, I guess I will be dead.

I do not fear death, but will be leaving behind a wife and children who depend upon me greatly for their provision as well as my part as a husband and father. Please pray and speak as an oracle of God if you have anything."

A few days later my friend would write that he was at peace with God and not afraid to die, even though he realized he knew much less of God's ways than he had once thought.

Without sharing my thoughts on sickness or the testimonies of numerous healings I have received and also not received after prayer, I will share with you my tearful and heartfelt reply to my friend. I didn't have an oracle, as he requested of me, but I did have prayer that Christ would give him that which was sufficient with great hope that he would be healed. I also shared with my dieing brother that if there was any way, I would gladly take his place that he might live. Because of my sufferings and circumstances I came to the place some years ago where to live is Christ to die is gain. Each day I have is all to His glory .... and everything else is a wash.

Ken, also this which you wrote caught my eye and it is a great question:

"One more thought: If suffering persecution and tribulation are what gives us the "big boy pants" then those in the 3rd world countries should be much closer to God than we comfortable Americans are. After all we in our most difficult situations haven't faced nearly as much tribulation and anguish as they have on a regular basis."

Also without an elaborate reply, I might share that which many have missed in measuring the purpose of the "church age" (last 2000 years) we reside in and I believe are just leaving now. The purpose is given in this scripture and enlarged on in the few following verses which I won't share here.

"Act 15:14 Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name."

The purpose of the age is to take out a people for His name ... a remnant. This purpose I believe might go a long way in giving answer to your ponderance stated above. I look forward to viewing Spy's and your continuing discussion.

and as far as your request for a name:

In the kingdom where big boy pantaloons are fitted and filled the hidden ones know me as Juan Alberto ;-)

You wrote..."You are definitely a real person of strength and favor in God's eyes and are becoming a friend to me, whether you want that or not LOL. "

OH! I am so blessed and honored to become your friend...I very much want that!

Thank you for the most gracious reply and for such heartfelt wonderful questions. I will answer them as best as I know how to. I am still in the process of BECOMING ...as you so eloquently pointed to about yourself as well by stating.."I assure you that if God changes me that I am not afraid to change as HE leads. "

You asked for a name...and I gladly share my name with you for ALL things are yours in Christ....my name is Eliy