There is but one overcomer and that be Christ and yes Christ within. It is actually Christ within that guides man into the Lake of Fire. "The fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars" are part and parcel of the old man that indwells us also. These things are burned out and the Christ man is not hurt but arises out of the fire. This is the second death and it is progressive until there be not but the full stature of Christ filling the vessel we are.

The "it is finished" doctrine is an escapist doctrine bred of the same spirit which promotes the "prosperity gospel" ......... same spirit different dress.

Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him. But we see Jesus,
Hebrews 2:8,9(a)

For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet.
1Cr 15:25

If you contemplate by the Holy Spirit this verse in 1 Corinthians you might see that the "till" in that scripture is the Lake of Fire. Some see it most don't but alas it is only by His grace that such is glimpsed.

God's blessings to you

So let me ask you a couple of questions.
If we are in the lake of fire as you say then what did we do to deserve that position? As you quoted from Revelation it is the fearful, unbelieving, etc... which are housed within this lake of fire, regardless of where this is, or what it is. I personally am not able to fit within any of these categories as I have been delivered from each of these attributes by and thru the work which Christ did for and as us.

Could it not be possible that rather than being in the lake of fire, that we as the ministers of God who are "flames of fire" that we are actually the lake of fire? Not a participant in that which is within it, but the actual flames of fire that are used of God to burn out that which is within others to allow the true Christ to manifest?

I personally believe there is a big difference in being IN the lake of fire and BEING the lake of fire. One of these concepts I can accept and one I cannot. I am truly thankful for that which Christ (Jesus) has done for us and I fully rest in that work. Nothing I do, or suffer can in any benefit the body of Christ in any way. We are the body of Christ, and His suffering, that of the head, is also the suffering of the body. Not a separate suffering, but one suffering, which was completed in and thru Jesus Christ. Yes, I too believe in the finished work of Christ. After all, if He didn't do it, then how do I think that I in my imperfections even think that I can be found worthy to lift myself to a position of my suffering in some way being something that would complete that which he would have apparently left unfinished? If something must be completed by us then He must have left it undone. But, repeating Jesus' own last words, "IT IS FINISHED". This to me is a point where I must accept that which Jesus said, and break with those who would say different. PLease don't take that as arrogance, not meat to be so. Just that in me regardless of how much I like someone, or how much truth they seem to have, if their truths seem to vary from that which clearly speaks from the word as TRUTH then I choose to walk in TRUTH. As you know since you are a well studied person, TRUTH is not what you know or things you know, TRUTH is a person and that is Jesus. If any of our doctrines point to us rather than to Christ then they need to be reexamined.

I have noticed in the teachings and writings of many great men of God that you have mentioned that there appears to be a prevailing thought over the past few years that somehow their personal sufferings are somehow beneficial to the body of Christ and are equal to those of Christ in their efficacy. It also appears that many have come across teaching that pretty much everything that happens in their life is OF GOD no matter how devastating or cruel the event may seem to be. You see I still believe that every good and perfect gift cometh from above.... Since I see God as my loving father, and I kow that I myself, as a natural father, would never in any way do anything that would ultimately harm my children I can't accept that God would place on His children anything that would harm them. Let me make it clear that I do understand the difference in discipline and know that discipline is necessary. But God would never place sickness, disease, etc upon us as discipline.

Unfortunately I have to go in mid-thought, but I will return.

Your brother in Christ,
A Concerned Believer

So let me ask you a couple of questions.
If we are in the lake of fire as you say then what did we do to deserve that position? As you quoted from Revelation it is the fearful, unbelieving, etc... which are housed within this lake of fire, regardless of where this is, or what it is. I personally am not able to fit within any of these categories as I have been delivered from each of these attributes by and thru the work which Christ did for and as us.

Could it not be possible that rather than being in the lake of fire, that we as the ministers of God who are "flames of fire" that we are actually the lake of fire? Not a participant in that which is within it, but the actual flames of fire that are used of God to burn out that which is within others to allow the true Christ to manifest?

I personally believe there is a big difference in being IN the lake of fire and BEING the lake of fire. One of these concepts I can accept and one I cannot. I am truly thankful for that which Christ (Jesus) has done for us and I fully rest in that work. Nothing I do, or suffer can in any benefit the body of Christ in any way. We are the body of Christ, and His suffering, that of the head, is also the suffering of the body. Not a separate suffering, but one suffering, which was completed in and thru Jesus Christ. Yes, I too believe in the finished work of Christ. After all, if He didn't do it, then how do I think that I in my imperfections even think that I can be found worthy to lift myself to a position of my suffering in some way being something that would complete that which he would have apparently left unfinished? If something must be completed by us then He must have left it undone. But, repeating Jesus' own last words, "IT IS FINISHED". This to me is a point where I must accept that which Jesus said, and break with those who would say different. PLease don't take that as arrogance, not meat to be so. Just that in me regardless of how much I like someone, or how much truth they seem to have, if their truths seem to vary from that which clearly speaks from the word as TRUTH then I choose to walk in TRUTH. As you know since you are a well studied person, TRUTH is not what you know or things you know, TRUTH is a person and that is Jesus. If any of our doctrines point to us rather than to Christ then they need to be reexamined.

I have noticed in the teachings and writings of many great men of God that you have mentioned that there appears to be a prevailing thought over the past few years that somehow their personal sufferings are somehow beneficial to the body of Christ and are equal to those of Christ in their efficacy. It also appears that many have come across teaching that pretty much everything that happens in their life is OF GOD no matter how devastating or cruel the event may seem to be. You see I still believe that every good and perfect gift cometh from above.... Since I see God as my loving father, and I kow that I myself, as a natural father, would never in any way do anything that would ultimately harm my children I can't accept that God would place on His children anything that would harm them. Let me make it clear that I do understand the difference in discipline and know that discipline is necessary. But God would never place sickness, disease, etc upon us as discipline.

Unfortunately I have to go in mid-thought, but I will return.

Your brother in Christ,
A Concerned Believer

Lack of anointing?

:-)

Now pick up thy cross, pilgrim!

There is no place in the Kingdom for the fearful.

Ken and Anonymous keep writing as there are folks out there that are reading the exchange and are gleaning from your positions.

Again, please accept my sincere apology today.

Most respectfully,
Bev

PS. I deleted the post as the words do not comfort, edify, or exhort.

Last Edited on 7-Oct-2008 4:15 AM

TO MAKE ALL THE SAME SIMPLY DOESNT FIT IN THE ECONOMY OF GOD, NOR DOES IT MAKE ANY SENSE BE IT COMMON OR SPIRITUAL SENSE.

SINCERELY,
A CONCERNED BELIEVER

One of the hardest things is to apply scripture to the "Kingdom within" where it brings forth benefits. The orthodox view is skewed because so much of scripture is projected outward ...... usually with the result being, our neighbor gets the short end of the stick.

Blessings to you

It has been about 3 years now since 'everything that could be shaken has been shaken' within my life...for that is when I started to hear the call to 'come out of her my people'...and what I thought to be true and 'cornerstones' of the christian faith I soon learned were just man-made teachings of carnal reasoning and interpretation.

When the Lord started to open my eyes about many things...I literally would shake....b/c I longed for the truth, and yet I was afraid that this new revelation might actually be deception too and so I did not want to get off into error. I would cry out to Holy Spirit and ask for Him to keep me from being decieved and help me to discern truth from error.

I share all of this b/c of what has been posted about the 'Lake of Fire'. This is a DEEP subject and what many Messianics would call a 'Sod level' interpretation of the scripture....(Hebrew has 4 levels of interpretation...literal, prophetic, allegorical, and mystical/revelational).
I have recently learned of the error teaching of 'eternal torment' that has its origin in paganism...and what an EYE OPENER that was for me to learn. WOW! But once again I give my Father all the praise b/c I have been set free from Hell & Death...and this to me also represents one more area of old Adam within that has been thrown into the Lake of Fire...and good riddance! The wonderful truth that Jesus WILL SAVE ALL eventually...each man in his own order...has taken me deeper into His love and compassion for humanity. For this I am so GRATEFUL! I truly can offer hope out there FOR ALL that nothing can separate you from the love of God....life can't and death can't!

I get what Anyonomous speaks of about the 'Lake of Fire' being the Ever Consuming Fire of God. For I have experienced it in my own life and this is all His work...for I am His workmanship....and to me this is really more about Consecration than anything....of being MADE HOLY....and this is progressive.

I also understand what A Concerned Believer speaks of too...about BEING His ministers of FIRE....whewwww....that is powerful too.

So once again I have enjoyed the discussion and want to thank you both for spurring me on to KNOW HIM!

Shalom dear brothers,
HeavenlySpy